24-08-2003 19:34									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor RJ: so, in the end, our sins are whitewashed and we go to heaven if we accept Jesus sacrifice ? Sounds quite similar to what I said (the main difference being that you switched "believing in God" with "believing in Jesus as our saviour")

*sigh* No they are not 'whitewashed' because the punishment has been 'paid' for by Christ's blood. Without Christ, we are all going to hell.

	24-08-2003 19:37									#32
	Support Apolyton

quote: Without Christ, we are all going to hell.

if God is going to judge me on what Adam and Eve did rather than what I have done in my life then I want to go to hell... for such a god is not fair and good and does not deserve to be worshipped.

	24-08-2003 19:37									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh *sigh* No they are not 'whitewashed' because the punishment has been 'paid' for by Christ's blood. Without Christ, we are all going to hell.

Ok, not "whitewashed" then. Merely, "all forgiven because someone paid your debt".

Well, in the end that's the same: for the last 2000 years, if you believe in Jesus, you have a straight out ticket to heaven no matter what you have done during your mortal life. If not, that's hell without a doubt.

	24-08-2003 19:41									#34
	Suffering from ads?

Spiffor:

Of all the major religions that share roots with Judaism (Islam and Christianity) Judaism makes the most sense. In Christianity (according to most) you go to heaven because of Jesus and aren't held accountable for your sins. In Islam, you can kill innocent people in the name of Allah and go to paradise.

	24-08-2003 19:42									#35
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Ok, not "whitewashed" then. Merely, "all forgiven because someone paid your debt".

Fair enough.

quote: Well, in the end that's the same: for the last 2000 years, if you believe in Jesus, you have a straight out ticket to heaven no matter what you have done during your mortal life. If not, that's hell without a doubt.

You make the 'believe' bit sound easy. I don't think it is. And anyway, it isn't just believing - I am sure satan 'believes' too

And I think Sava's point is a good one (almost). Many people believe in God but still reject him (like this priest seems to do). The choice to go to hell is no-one's but your own. Good luck Sava.

	24-08-2003 19:43									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sava Of all the major religions that share roots with Judaism (Islam and Christianity) Judaism makes the most sense. In Christianity (according to most) you go to heaven because of Jesus and aren't held accountable for your sins. In Islam, you can kill innocent people in the name of Allah and go to paradise.

Well, it's not like the old Testament doesn't encourage you to genocide your neighbours though. However, I admit I don't know if it gives promises for the afterlife if you kill a Babylonian.

	24-08-2003 19:45									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: And I think Sava's point is a good one (almost). Many people believe in God but still reject him (like this priest seems to do). The choice to go to hell is no-one's but your own.

But that's the thing... I don't believe a fair and good God would send good people to hell just for not believing in the myth of his son... nor would he allow evil people into hell just because they do believe. That's not good or fair. And if God isn't good or fair, I won't worship or praise him.

Personally, I think religion might be a test from God... He's weeding out the mindless followers.

	24-08-2003 19:46									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: However, I admit I don't know if it gives promises for the afterlife if you kill a Babylonian.

Maybe that's the motive of the Iraq War.

	24-08-2003 19:49									#39
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Well, it's not like the old Testament doesn't encourage you to genocide your neighbours though. However, I admit I don't know if it gives promises for the afterlife if you kill a Babylonian.

Not quite a Babylonian but....

quote: Exodus 32:27 He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man {of you} put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor."

	24-08-2003 19:50									#40
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Sava That's not good or fair. And if God isn't good or fair, I won't worship or praise him.

What is your definition of good and fair? And why should it be any more valid than mine (or for that matter, that of a pedophile priest)?

	24-08-2003 19:52									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I guess my biggest complaint against Christians is that they won't admit the Bible is the product of man. Sorry, but religion is the creation of man... not a God.

I can't comment on the existence of a higher power. The concept doesn't make much sense, but I can't rule it out. That's why I don't bother with all that bullshit. It's highly unlikely that Christianity is the one true religion. And it's pointless to waste your life searching for truth. Either you will learn about it when you die, or you won't. And if you don't, it won't matter... because your dead.

	24-08-2003 19:55									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: What is your definition of good and fair?

Holding people accountable for their sins, regardless of faith. If God is an all-powerful being, my devotion to him is irrelevant. And if he's some sort of sociopath that requires my faith, then he's not good and fair. It's that simple.

quote: And why should it be any more valid than mine (or for that matter, that of a pedophile priest)?

in the end, it's me and God... only my principles will matter...

	24-08-2003 19:55									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I just noticed, that Lincon put it in another thread much more eloquently than I did:

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln To be a follower of Jesus it is necessary to actually do what he said. Yes, salvation is a free gift of grace but the trampling of that grace under foot by those who should be teaching it by example is a grievous sin.

	24-08-2003 19:56									#44
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sava Holding people accountable for their sins, regardless of faith.

But how do you define a sin?

	24-08-2003 19:57									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

"I guess my biggest complaint against Christians is that they won't admit the Bible is the product of man. Sorry, but religion is the creation of man... not a God."

Nobody except for the most fundamentalist believes that God transcribed the bible to us. Most Christians believe the bible was produced by man under some degree of divine inspiration.

"But that's the thing... I don't believe a fair and good God would send good people to hell just for not believing in the myth of his son... nor would he allow evil people into hell just because they do believe. That's not good or fair. And if God isn't good or fair, I won't worship or praise him. "

Again, not all Christians are hard-line Protestants...

	24-08-2003 20:02									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh But how do you define a sin?

it's a massive gray area...

if there is a victim, there is a sin... it's that simple.

most are easy: murder, stealing...

others aren't... homosexuality, drug use, prostitution (none of which I consider sins)

I am not concrete in my belief of God or no God... but assuming there is one, I doubt judgement would be a situation where some angel just says, "you did this and this and you go to hell"... I envision it to be a long process consisting of a dialogue with God...

I don't think sins are just sins because God says so... even if God doesn't exist, sins still do. They are above him.

	24-08-2003 20:04									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Nobody except for the most fundamentalist believes that God transcribed the bible to us. Most Christians believe the bible was produced by man under some degree of divine inspiration.

I have not seen any evidence suggesting God has interfered with human civilization. He gave us free will. He doesn't mess with free will. Either you believe this or you don't... it can't be both ways. Either man wrote the bible on his own... or God interfered with free will and did it himself. Which is it. This is a yes or no situation... either it's God's creation or not... none of this inspiration BS.

quote: Again, not all Christians are hard-line Protestants...

and the very open nature and many interpretations of the religion discredits it...

	24-08-2003 20:31									#48
	Got spare money?

Old testament god quite often encouraged to kill in a genocidal matter entire populations. Old Testament god doesn't call home anymore.

	24-08-2003 22:30									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Protestants, accepting Jesus Christ as your saviour does indeed guarantee salvation and lack of penalty for sins, although I think some mainstream to liberal protestant denominations recognize the possibility of Mortal Sin.

It seems inappropriate to gage the priest by protestantism, since his authority would not be recognised. All we would say is that the man never truly believed in God, especially if he were baptised as an infant, and may not have known Christ.

However, we must remember that we are not called to judge other people, to determine whether they will go to heaven or hell. That's God's job. We just have to pick up the pieces afterwards.

I'm going to use my church as an example since that is the one that I know best. When a member starts sinning, and becomes a real problem for the congregation, they are expelled from the church for a period of time until they choose to repent.

Shi could not tell me right now, whether or not he knows that he is saved. Neither could the Catholic priest. Why should we presume to know better?

	24-08-2003 22:34									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: I'm going to use my church as an example since that is the one that I know best. When a member starts sinning, and becomes a real problem for the congregation, they are expelled from the church for a period of time until they choose to repent.

that's nice... isolate... wash your hands of the problem... REAL Christian of you guys...

	24-08-2003 22:47									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sava I have not seen any evidence suggesting God has interfered with human civilization. He gave us free will. He doesn't mess with free will. Either you believe this or you don't... it can't be both ways. Either man wrote the bible on his own... or God interfered with free will and did it himself. Which is it. This is a yes or no situation... either it's God's creation or not... none of this inspiration BS. and the very open nature and many interpretations of the religion discredits it...

I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you insist on defining everything your way, on your terms, you're not going to find peace with god. To put it another way, the creator of heaven and earth doesn't take crap.
Most of what you and Spiffor have posted re: Christianity is vastly oversimplified too. If not all. E.G., the temporary excommunication of a sinner is partly for the sinner's own good and partly for that of the parish. It is intended as punishment, to teach them that they cannot pay lip service to god while living in the gutter, and to remind them not to take the church for granted; it's also intended to keep the sinner from sowing dissent or inspriring imitators until such time as he/she chooses to repent. In the Orthodox Church the excommunication is largely reserved for big stuff that hurts other members of the church as well as yourself, like divorce or murder. In no way is it "washing our hands of the problem." It was taken on the advice of one of Paul's epistles-I want to say Corinthians, but Obiwan could tell you better than I.
What kind of Orthodox church were you raised in, that you didn't know better than to think we all believe the same gibberish as the people in the Chick tracts?

	24-08-2003 22:51									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you insist on defining everything your way, on your terms, you're not going to find peace with god.

What do you think religion is? It's just someone else defining things their way. Sorry... but Christianity is someone's definition of what God is... just as Islam, Judaism, etc, etc, etc..

quote: To put it another way, the creator of heaven and earth doesn't take crap.

Have you met him?

And that is exactly what my point is. Not one human on this Earth that has ever lived knows what lies beyond death... not one human being knows if there is a God or higher power... and not one human being knows what he or she or whatever it wants.

And any human being who says they know God's will is full of ****.

	25-08-2003 01:31									#53
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh It even goes further and insists that we all deserve hell, because we are all corrupt and evil.

Sounds like a great religion.

	25-08-2003 01:36									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Did he actually rape any children. I mean forcibly sodomize any who didn't want to?

	25-08-2003 01:48									#55
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sava What do you think religion is? It's just someone else defining things their way. Sorry... but Christianity is someone's definition of what God is... just as Islam, Judaism, etc, etc, etc.. And that is exactly what my point is. Not one human on this Earth that has ever lived knows what lies beyond death... not one human being knows if there is a God or higher power... and not one human being knows what he or she or whatever it wants. And any human being who says they know God's will is full of ****.

The "you" there was singular. One of the many points on which our beliefs seem to differ is that I do not believe that all agreements reached by consensus are the detestable fruit of the mob mentality. The doctrines of the early church weren't determined by a shadowy cabal of men in a little candlelit room. The Ecumenical councils were HUGE. Just about every Bishop in christendom showed up for them, and nobody left until they agreed on something. They took months. A great deal of heated argument took place. A bunch of men with very strong beliefs argued, referring back to the source of those beliefs to back them up, and what they concluded was the truth came out. The reason we don't question those beliefs today is that we operate under the assumption that deep spiritual truths do not change with time. All the changes that have occurred over the past milennium or so are largely irrelevant to the formal doctrine of the Christian church, so aside from new issues raised by new technology we need only respect the judgment of men that came before. We see no reason to assume that our antecedents were liars.
Which is where we disagree. Why do you dismiss every idea you hear as the plot of goons with ulterior motives? I don't believe I've ever seen you actually *consider* an idea suggested by others. Why?

	25-08-2003 02:01									#56
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by TCO Did he actually rape any children. I mean forcibly sodomize any who didn't want to?

He definately did, I believe all these allegations involve unwanted sexual advances.

quote: Since the mid-1990s, more than 130 people have come forward with horrific childhood tales about how former priest John J. Geoghan allegedly fondled or raped them during a three-decade spree through a half-dozen Greater Boston parishes. Almost always, his victims were grammar school boys. One was just 4 years old... According to McSorley, Geoghan, who knew the family from St. Andrew's, learned of his father's suicide and dropped by to offer condolences to his mother, who is schizophrenic. The priest offered to buy Patrick ice cream. "I felt a little funny about it," McSorley recalled in an interview. "I was 12 years old and he was an old man." Riding home after getting ice cream, McSorley says, Geoghan consoled him. But then he patted his upper leg and slid his hand up toward his crotch. "I froze up," McSorley said. "I didn't know what to think. Then he put his hand on my genitals and started masturbating me. I was petrified." McSorely added that Geoghan then began masturbating himself.

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/geoghan/

	25-08-2003 02:45									#57
	Get a bigger avatar today!

TMI

	25-08-2003 03:18									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I read the story. Didn't seem to say that he actually held someone down and penetrated him.

	25-08-2003 04:09									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by TCO I read the story. Didn't seem to say that he actually held someone down and penetrated him.

Well according to this article

quote: By his own admission, he twice raped a 10-year-old boy.

http://www.petehamill.com/nydnews31802.html

	25-08-2003 04:12									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: if there is a victim, there is a sin... it's that simple.

Is it a sin to call someone an idiot if they are one?