24-08-2003 08:37									#1
	random map generator (a request for specs) Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey, this is primemover, looking in after a long recess (forgive the pun). I got bogged down with school and I was so burned out when school was finally over (being it was my first year teaching and being in a difficult district) that I just took the summer off free of thinking. I have switched districts and this *may* be a less stressful year.

But I'm in the mood to do something with this civ effort today and thought I would get started on an attempt at the random map generator I offered to do. Provided that school doesn't get me over stressed again, I am more likely going to be able to follow through this time. I would like to start a C++ attempt at the map generator (to find a good algorithm for our needs) that can be translated into Java at a later time (I.E. the only thing that should need to be dealt with are differences in pointers, objects and the GUI if one is necessary) We could also potentially use the generator as a separate executable that creates a scenario.

Keep in mind, that I will need to do this as I have time. Weekends like this one where nothing pressing is to be done are ideal, but there will be periods when I will not be able to work on it. Also keep in mind that since the Call to Power II source code is about to be released, I may eventually join that coding team, as it is very close, playwise, (with some significant additions/modifications) to the kind of game I have in mind. That being said, I am ready to do some work.

I have a general idea of how the map generator is going to work (if we are still using local maps) and I don't anticipate a local version being too difficult to do (a global one, however, is a significant task). As it is, it looks as though, we are still dealing with local scenerios so I am assuming we want a randomly generated local map. So now I am looking for any comments regarding the generator, specs on map layout, and current environmental model.

So here are my questions:

1. What is the current map size and characteristics that I need to know overall in order to generate the maps?

2. Any significant changes made since I last posted? (back in Jan or Feb I believe)

3. What are the current types of landscapes, weather, vegetation models, currently in use?

4. ID numbers, DEF's, constants and specification/header files would also help in issues with item in question #3 (eg... assignments such as DESERT_TERRAIN_ID).

	24-08-2003 12:51									#2
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Hi,

The best thing to look at is the scenarios folder in the jar file. Therein, there is a map section where you have basically all the information.
I think a good map size would be around the size used fro Jericho or a bit bigger (12 x 32). You may want to make it bigger, or as an input of the program. There are no hard limits on map size, but memory becomes a problem (far too) fast with big maps.
The model currently in use is still very simple:
You should check the dataformat.html file if you have it for the data format, but here is the list of terrains currently coded:

• 
  o
  - ocean
  
• 
  c
  - coastal
  
• 
  f
  - flat
  
• 
  p
  - plain
  
• 
  r
  - rolling
  
• 
  b
  - broken
  
• 
  m
  - mountain
  
• 
  d
  - dunes
  
• 
  s
  - swamp
  
• 
  F
  - forest
  
• 
  j
  - jungle
  
• 
  t - tundra

	24-08-2003 19:49									#3
	Re: random map generator (a request for specs) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi primemover, good to see you back. Picking up from where Laurent left off. . .

quote: Originally posted by primemover 2. Any significant changes made since I last posted? (back in Jan or Feb I believe)

Not AFAIK

quote: 3. What are the current types of landscapes, weather, vegetation models, currently in use?

Like Laurent said, it is Very simple at this point. You can open the demo .jar file in winzip and look at the file \resources\terrain.xml to see what there is. For now the info about vegetation is only contained in farming sites.

For what Will be there in terms of vegetation etc. the old discussions in the ecology thread, some of which IIRC you participated in, are still valid.

Cya,

Mark

	25-08-2003 05:48									#4
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Here are my thoughts on what has been said:

quote: I think a good map size would be around the size used fro Jericho or a bit bigger (12 x 32).

umm... that is REALLY small. I don't remember it being that small... but hey it's been a while

quote: I think the easiest thing to do would be to generate a scenario xml file, with stubs for the constant parts, and generating the map part

Since I don't know much about XML (other than what is is...) this went a bit over my head (in terms of what a stub is and the exact meaning "constant parts" has in this context).

Same with the following...

quote: Beware there are square references in the scenario that you may have to change too in order to get it to work.

	25-08-2003 05:54									#5
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quote: Like Laurent said, it is Very simple at this point.

Should I expand on it? Make it a bit more complex? (Althought we would have to come up with more graphics if I did that)

Is vegetation separate (an overlay?) from terrain? (yet?). Keep in mind that they *are* two different things! (Swamps generally occur on flat terrains for obvious reasons, but forests, rain forests, grass, etc... can occur on mountians, planes, hills, etc...)

If we decide to make things more complex (such as separating the concepts of terrain and vegetation) we will need to make some graphics to accomodate.

Matthew

	26-08-2003 03:33									#6
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Vegetation should be separate, but is not yet. The graphics aren't really the hard part (forests can be an overlay quite easily), but I think we must accomodate the code to take these into consideration.
Terrain currently is just (vegetation + terrain type) a la civ, with the additional possibility of having rivers and coastlines on the sides, and special features (like gold ore, etc.).
The terrain.xml file really contains everything we can do with terrains now. Adding something like separate vegetation/topography is feasible, but just takes time.
Also, we don't have a xml description for rivers now.
All these things can be done, but I'm too busy with the ai right now to tackle them soon, and don't think anyone else has time for it.

	26-08-2003 04:40									#7
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Hi Gents:

My take on this is that you should make the world generator according roughly to what is in the ecology model. It doesn't have to get there all at once, but that should be the overall goal. We can then adapt the output of the map generator to make the map for the game with whatever simplifications are needed to make what the game needs at that point. If you will, we'll have an adapter to dumb down the generated map.

There are a number of things not in the ecology model that Laurent has brought up, like economic specials such as gold.

Laurent is pretty much our only active programmer for now. Until someone else shows up, or I or Gary get back to coding, we will have to do things in a way that he can live with. The xml map part of the scenario files shouldn't be that difficult for your code to generate primemover. That is what Laurent is talking about, and seems to be the path of least resistance at this point. Take a look at the map section (near the bottom) of FE delenda.xml in the .jar file to see what is involved. There is a doc that describes what the tags mean that is dataformat.xml in the .jar file.

	26-08-2003 04:43									#8
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remember my lack of experience with XML (my second posted message in this thread). I will have to become more familiar with it as I go.

Few more questions... I think I'm getting a good idea now (minus the actual details) of how this will work.

So are rivers and coastlines overlays? I am wondering this for a number of reasons. Here are some thoughts that have to do with this and some questions:

1. Call to power II uses a unique system of graphics that integrates with bordering graphics using a specific algorithm to figure out which graphic is to be used. It works out so that the transition between land types is not so cut and dry and so that it looks relatively natural. The advantage is that it has nice transitions (not so modular/blocky). The disadvantages are the complex algorithm, number of graphics, and time it takes to create them all. So my basic question is, how does the COC system work?

2. Since it seems you desire a separation between landscape and vegetation, and perhaps even soil (might help with what I'm about to say), maybe we could come up with an easier system of overlays so that the entire nature of the land was done using overlays. As long as we are on a cartesian map, we could even cache the layout of the land every so often so that we don't have to do too much of the overlaying (other than tile improvements). That way, we can speed up scrolling etc. (we could bit blit instead of contantly drawing overlays other than units, cities, and goods).

Anyway, these are just some ideas I am throwing into the pot.
Here are the questions I would like answered now (thanks for answering the previous ones):

1. It really would help to get the general idea of how the water/land/vegetation works together before I develop a graphic interface to this whole thing.

2. I can go ahead and implement a model that separates landform, vegetation, and even soil type and then we can work with whatever we have (simplifiying it for now, but still having the mechanism for later use). Is that something that you want me to do?

Matthew

	26-08-2003 04:54									#9
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(please read the above post)

As I posted my reply, I just noticed that Mark has recently posted (since I last read the update).

It sounds as though Mark is encouraging what I suggested. Just let me know.

quote: you should make the world generator according roughly to what is in the ecology model.

would that be map generator? I am still assuming you only need a small map generator right now (of a local area). A world generator is a major undertaking in comparison. (A world generator requires that we consider the interaction of an entire plate system, where a "area" generator means we can just make a generalized guess at the local layout of the landscape based on the nearest fault line(s) if they exist at all).

	26-08-2003 05:10									#10
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When I said "world generator" I meant map generator, as you suspected. Don't worry, I'm not trying to talk you into doing the whole world at this point!

	26-08-2003 14:12									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: So are rivers and coastlines overlays?

Yes they are.

quote: Call to power II uses a unique system of graphics that integrates with bordering graphics using a specific algorithm to figure out which graphic is to be used.

I know that system. It's quite nice, but the blending requires lots of art, in particular if you want to add new terrain types. I don't think we're going that way because of the amount of art needed. Picking the right tile wouldn't be that much of a computation problem, since it can be done when terrain is determined, i.e. usually only once at the beginning of the game.

quote: Since it seems you desire a separation between landscape and vegetation, and perhaps even soil (might help with what I'm about to say), maybe we could come up with an easier system of overlays so that the entire nature of the land was done using overlays.

Yes. I agree that we could have everything as overlays. Currently, the map draws its terrain, coastlines, roads, units, walls, and then there is an additional overlay for showing planned movement, roads and forts. So one or two more overlays won't change much.

quote: 1. It really would help to get the general idea of how the water/land/vegetation works together before I develop a graphic interface to this whole thing.

I don't know what kind of answers you expect here. Except looking at the ecology model. As far as what's coded, a terrain has movement and economics features, which should probably be a function of landscape + vegetation, and rivers should have a movement cost (plus maybe some military defense value).

quote: 2. I can go ahead and implement a model that separates landform, vegetation, and even soil type and then we can work with whatever we have (simplifiying it for now, but still having the mechanism for later use). Is that something that you want me to do?

I think having the three separate types would be the best, that way, we can simplify it for now, and remove the simplifications when we enrich the code to manage the various layers.

	27-08-2003 04:14									#12
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ok... looks like a plan. I will get started soon. Probably this weekend since nobody's going to be around this weekend but me.

	03-09-2003 00:09									#13
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OOH yea! all we need now is someone to do some non-sqare-based tiles system...more triangular.

	05-09-2003 07:02									#14
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I hope to eventually do this... but this that would require a major makeover to everything. So first this generator.... next a world generator. Then eventually, a globe generator.

	17-10-2003 23:50									#15
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I looked at the existing code. Gary coded a fractal map generator, which gives big mountain masses instead of ranges. As I didn't know what to do on tuesday evening, I coded another algorithm which is a very simple division of the map into polygons (tiles), which I then ram into one another to get some mountains.
The algorithm I used makes it ok for square maps, but maps that have one dimension much bigger than the other will look stretched that way.
Anyway, it took me only one evening to code it, so it's neither very good nor something I plan to use. The code is simple enough, though, so primemover, if you are ineterested, I can send it to you. It would show you how the map interfaces with the rest of the game.
Anyway here's a set of screnshots showing the results of the current algorithms (vegetation is not computed).

The left shows my algorithm (tiles), the right is the fractal algorithm Gary coded. There are 2 screens for each setting. Settings top-down are lots of land, islands, plains:

Attachment: voronoi-fractal.png
This has been downloaded 76 time(s).

	26-10-2003 01:49									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I played a bit more with the map generator.
I realised that the plcament of the initial seeds is very important. Grouping the land seeds together results in better results for instance. This means that land plates and sea plates shouldn't be distributed randomly over the map. Land plates should be grouped together in order to avoid weird lakes or inner seas to be too common.
I also tried to add some vegetation based on wind patterns and humidity (drier after rugged terrain), but my algorithm is not very good, as you may see.
If someone has detailed algorithms to propose, they're welcome.

Attachment: clashrandommap.png
This has been downloaded 69 time(s).

	28-10-2003 15:17									#17
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True, but hey its getting better We don't expect perfect results this early.

It appears your doing a general west-to-east flow of winds and that may be one the reasons. (But that's for a more advanced model).

One thing that may make it a bit better would be just to factor in the relative position on the earth in latitude (trade winds and sunlight). That IMO would a good next step, but that's just my opinion.

	31-10-2003 00:15									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: It appears your doing a general west-to-east flow of winds

Actually, there are several stripes east-west and west-east, but it doesn't show much here.
The code uses 8 zones for wind directions, which alternate EW/WE, and equal zones for polar/temperate/tropical/equatorial bands. In each band, there are 3 types of terrain (wet/normal/arid). I use random numbers to decide if I get drier after rough terrain (mountains blocking humidity) and also if I go drier/wetter just at random, starting wet near water under the wind.

	14-01-2004 12:10									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I just discovered this thread (see the other one I bumped).

What stopped me from completing the random map scenarios (apart from RL) was the difficulty of placing water based (or lack of it) terrain such as swamps, forests and deserts. I did try to find a model for the type of wind patterns that would realistically generate terrain with these features. Without success.

I am not actually convinced that a fractal model is the best way to go - it was just the quickest.

Laurent - I would be interested to see the alternative code you used.

After save/restore and polygons I might attack this again.

Of course if someone else does it I will be delighted. I very rarely play any of the Civ versions in any mode but a random amp.

Cheers

	17-01-2004 01:21									#20
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quote: Laurent - I would be interested to see the alternative code you used.

Well, you should have got it if my mail reached you. Check the classes in game.geography.generator :VoronoiMapGenerator and VegetationGenerator.
I won't pretend the code is nicely formatted, and there's probably a lot of things that could have been shared with your initial class. But I did this mostly in one evening when I had nothing better to do, so at that hour I mayn't have given the best out of myself.

Mostly, the map is generated by a set of seeds, with a setting that let you choose to group land seeds together (I found this got better results). The number of seeds depends a lot on the size of the map if you want good results. Plates are built using a Voronoi cell like program, hence the name of the class. Then I move plates once, and adjust the sizes.

More interesting is the vegetation part. To have stripes of vegetation (polar/temperate/tropical/equatorial) requires a really big map (each stripe needs at least 2 y's in order for the isometric view to prevent tropical to touch polar), and probably 4 or 5 in order to be seen by the player. With both hemispheres, this makes about an height of at least 30, better 40 or 50, if you want to see good results. The code generates wind patterns, which probably double the figures, as wetlands are under the wind from the sea until you reach a higher altitude, afterwards you tend to get dryer.

Removing most (or all) of the random factors gives a better idea of the capabilities of the algorithm but slightly less interesting maps.

	24-03-2004 19:11									#21
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maps looking nice... do you need some terrain graphics doing? overlays? post your requests on the "Clash Graphics - New Thread" here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=11989

}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

..carrying on from the primemover posts..

i'd happily work on a whole world scenario if i knew how... i don't know anything about xml, but if i can get some simple instructions i can cope with a repetetive task like that, as i'd quite ike to play it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

so you're talking a map of only 50x100 ?

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

how will altitude/depth be shown on the polygon map?
(ooops, wrong thread?)

	27-03-2004 01:36									#22
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quote: so you're talking a map of only 50x100 ?

You can generate a map of any size, but since I haven't put any people on the map after creating the geography, it's not very useful to make huge maps. Anything less than that size would likely not be realistic in terms of climates.
The point in terms of map size is what economics, unit, etc. are on the map, as these are what drives the performances (speed and memory consumption) of the program. It's hard to give any figures about size and speed until everything is coded and then optimised if needs be.

	27-03-2004 02:56									#23
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how long will this civ-style map be used for? when is the polygon map due? will it bear and resemblence to the Sim City 4 style of map?
i'm thinking about doing some terrain overlays which blend into each other a bit... is it worth the effort? what plans are there for terrain overlays? (including with the polygon map)

	27-03-2004 04:01									#24
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You've got to ask Gary for the polygons.
Overlays are needed for vegetation.
The map generator I made uses altitude and soem vegetation thing. River overlays would also be needed, though for the moment we could reuse the coast overlays if needed.
There is a problem with terrain, which is I'm not sure of the while set of terrain we want. Also I'm not sure that all vegetation can be an overlay (forest is, plains/desert is not).

	27-03-2004 16:29									#25
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well, when you know, please post your requests on the Graphics "To Do" List thread.

plants seem like the main kind of overlay... swamp too.

On the subject of Rivers. (and Canals?!)

Do we want wispy tributaries, joining a medium size river, fnially becoming a wider navigable waterway leading to an estuary, waterfall or delta?

Meaning - do you want 3 sizes of "river", and then 3 kinds out "rivermouth"? (plus Canals?)