25-08-2003 11:54									#1
	How soon to build the VW, after we have built the HGP? Suffering from ads?

Basically assume that the university is following the same kind of plan as us. Since they're running freemarket they'll get more energy and that will take into account the +2 industry bonus.

They got industrial automation in 2129 from the diplomancy window. How long do you think before they will be able to rush build the VW?

We've got 9 crawlers by this turn. We have had IA for about 5 turns. So assuming 6 turns to build 10 crawlers we should rush build the VW in 2135?

I guess rush building the HGP followed closely by the VW if not both at once may be the best option?

The problem with that is our mineral productions gets halved after we cash in all those crawlers. Assuming we have forests for all those crawlers. We lose 32 minerals per turn after cashing in 16 crawlers. That means every turn we hold off getting the HGP we get 1/2 a crawler, and every turn we hold off building the VW we get 1 crawler.

From talking with Jamski and buster's comments I believe that getting the HGP should be done as early as possible.

The real question is when should we build the VW as every turn we delay getting it we get an extra crawler.

	25-08-2003 13:08									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree that the HGP is so essentila that we should cripple our industry to get it. The VW would be very nice, but unlike the other factions, we can use police for the same effect. HOWEVER, we should try and prevent the Uni getting their grubby hands on it, as it can be a game killer for them. If we only had infilteration, we could see how advanced they are with it. We can assume they have the tech, and that they just got IA, so how long CAN we delay the VW? I'm tempted to say we should build it pretty soon.

I'm really torn between saying get it as soon as we can after the HGP, or saying wait a while. I have a feeling that if we wait, we'll miss out on it though.

What to do....

-Jam

	25-08-2003 13:24									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

John says:
hello
Jamski says:
heya
Jamski says:
the cat wants me
John says:
okay
John says:
try and make sure you don't end up with too many scratches
Jamski says:
i got him
Jamski says:
too many more scratches you mean
John says:
so any idea on the VW?
Jamski says:
*looks at his arms and legs*
Jamski says:
I dunno John
Jamski says:
If we really want it, then we have to go for it, not wait
Jamski says:
the Uni have IA and Plan Nets, so they could snatch it at any time
John says:
well the denial strategy....
Jamski says:
and if the Uni get it, then they're gonna win
John says:
so do you reckon wait 1 turn? after HGP then build the VW?
Jamski says:
It more than cancels out their only real weakness
John says:
or build them simulateously
Jamski says:
can we get both simultaniuosly
John says:
I did the calculations and they say we can
Jamski says:
that stops people cahngeing their HGP pre-build th the VW and getting it the same turn
John says:
although not sure how much damage to our industry yet
Jamski says:
its workth it
John says:
okay
Jamski says:
we'd go to the top of the powergraph
John says:
lol
Jamski says:
AND we can rebuild crawlers in no time
John says:
last time we went to the top of the power graph
John says:
the other 3 factions quickly did a tech trading scramble I think.
Jamski says:
imagine what the other factiosn would say when we get two SPs in a single turn
John says:
well actually it was slowly did a tech trading scramble if you remember how long we had to wait between turns.
Jamski says:
true
Jamski says:
I need more tea
Jamski says:

John says:
the other factions would say tassadar is leaking us information.
Jamski says:
but he's not
Jamski says:
we say he's leaking them information
Jamski says:
I think its worth loosing the crawlers for the GLORY of two SPs in a turn
Jamski says:
It would really give us a big morale boost
John says:
really?
Jamski says:
And might get people more intrested
John says:
but won't other factions hate us?
Jamski says:
The Uni will
Jamski says:
But that's to be expected
Jamski says:
But the other factions will be glad that the Uni didn't get the VW
John says:
yeah I suppose
Jamski says:
"Thank god it was the Hive, they don't even have any nodes"
John says:
lol
John says:
okay point taken
Jamski says:
I'm excited about this race
John says:
you know with the whole MSN thingy, is it okay if I post this.
Jamski says:
if you like

	26-08-2003 00:40									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm for building both HGP and VW, maybe one turn apart if necessary. The bases that builds crawlers will be continuing building crawlers, so when 5 crawlers get to be cashed in, hopefully there should be new crawlers pumped out the same turn of next to fill up the production ability.

We definitely should do the rush calculation in order to be able to rush a new crawler the next turn. I assume Kody you were talking about this in another thread right? I could do this calculation if you need me. I think I understand the idea is basically adding 20 to the rush amount so 10 minerals will be carried over to the next turn and thus enables a new rush in the turn. Is this correct? Do we have lots of cash though?

	26-08-2003 03:56									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nope that's not correct. The idea is to only rush what we need to build the current crawler, and speed the 2nd crawler after the current one. Generally I only think 2 builds ahead as by the time of the third crawler the production all changes.

	26-08-2003 18:56									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was looking at the turn. It appears the CyCon have given up on their SP. Since they switched away from a SP this suggests that they didn't have many minerals queued in the first place. So they probably weren't serious about building a SP before.

I was considering delaying the HGP so we could generate more crawlers. Or use the industry to build recycling tanks first. However Jamski's arguments and the following thread.
http://www.civgaming.net/forums/sho...10&pagenumber=1

Convinced me that the HGP is so critical to our future development that we can't afford the smallest chance in losing it.

As for the VW, I expect the university is quietly stashing away crawlers just like we are. So when they do build their SP it will happen suddenly and without warning. However, I'm guessing the CyCon aren't anywhere near getting a SP yet, unless they're going for the crawler plan and have plenty of mines ready for crawler building.

Should we delay the VW for 2 turns since we may have breathing space, and attempt to build a few recycling tanks?

After losing the WP unexpectedly to the drones, even when I was watching their turn. :embrassment: Well I don't trust myself to predict when other factions will build their SPs.