26-08-2003 11:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes, there were but they bodies number dozens and not hundreds like in Bosnia. Several were found. Another favorite Serb trick was to surround Albanian towns and give the people one hour to leave or they said they'd kill them. As the people left they were robbed, their identy papers were taken away, and there were several cases of rape. After the towns were looted the homes were blown up just to make sure the Albanians didn't come back. Another favorite trick was to mine the border areas and then tell the refugees they could either run across the mine field or be shot. Most choice to take their chances with the mine field.

And is it somehow different from what Albanians did and still doing thanks to your intervention?

	26-08-2003 11:51									#32
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Shootings were down to about one per month by the time I left three years ago. Shootings have dropped off so much that the one that happened last month when the boys where shot was the first in six months.

You'll always have some wackos but NATO has pretty much put an end to the organized ethnic violence.

	26-08-2003 11:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Don't make me laugh. Sure, USA always take care about its slaves and as long as Iraqis oil industry will be privatized by US compaines and yanks will start to f*ck-up Iraqis land pumping out everything that has value, Iraqis will live much better, right?

Actually the US has a material interest in seeing Iraq become a functioning nation again. The US wants Iraq to be a showcase of an alternative way of doing things in the ME. They just badly screwed it up.

	26-08-2003 11:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Kosovo was absolutely 100% justified...

By whom? UN SC perhaps? By international law?
IT WAS PURE AGRESSION AGAINST SOVEREIGN COUNTRY. At least it was so in accordance with UN charter.

quote: ...in order to prevent Serbs cleansing yet another ethnic minority.

and in order to start Albanian cleansing rightfull owners of this land. Thanks to your help to Albanians, they successfully cleanised a land which always belonged to Serbia, a land where Serbian state started its existance, from Serbs.
Great work- to intervent to stop one cleansing, but to start another (but this time ten times worse cleansing).
Just f*cking great.

	26-08-2003 11:58									#35
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Yes, Serb, life was certainly much better under USSR with its orders of ethnic relocation from the Son of Heaven Joseph Stalin himself.

The Internet is just one of the ways in which the post-Cold War era is superior to the pre-Cold War era. It's much easier to stir up global concern to worthy causes now. The US will have to clean up its act.

	26-08-2003 12:01									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Unfortunatelly most of my knowledge about SU based on my own experience, not on such great source as Hollywood movies.

Being a member of the "ruling nation" I bet your experience is way better that that of the "ruled".

	26-08-2003 12:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Shootings were down to about one per month by the time I left three years ago. Shootings have dropped off so much that the one that happened last month when the boys where shot was the first in six months.

Of course. Do you know how many Serbs lived there before your intervention and how many Serbs living there now? Every Serb who was able to live already left Kosovo. Remaining live in constant fear for their lives.

quote: You'll always have some wackos but NATO has pretty much put an end to the organized ethnic violence.

NATO, my ass. Albanians already killed or drove away native population of this land- Serbs. And you call this- "NATO has pretty much put an end to the organized ethnic violence."?

	26-08-2003 12:06									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Being a member of the "ruling nation" I bet your experience is way better that that of the "ruled".

Sure, but I guess its still different from experience of American who never was to USSR. With you I'm ready to argue, with yanks who took their knowledge about SU from Hollywood movies I don't.

	26-08-2003 12:10									#39
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YES!!! Serb's back!

*sits back with a BIG bowl of popcorn*

	26-08-2003 12:11									#40
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Pre-war the Serbs were only 25% of the population with Roma, croats, and Vlacks (a people who speak a latin based language; essentially what's left of the Romans in the Balkans) making up leass then 1%. Today Serbs make up around 10% largely due to many Serbs fleeing with the Yugoslav Army after the end of the Air War and then never coming back. Part of the reason the people didn't come back is some where afraid but part of it was also economic. You see Kosovo is the Mississippi of Yugoslavia and many of the Serbs who left found they could make more money by staying in Serbia proper so they didn't go back.

Either way the Serbs haven't been the majority in Kosovo since the 1940's. The Albanians just have bigger families so the demographics shifted in their favor.

	26-08-2003 12:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Yes, Serb, life was certainly much better under USSR with its orders of ethnic relocation from the Son of Heaven Joseph Stalin himself.

"Son of Heaven "? You must be drunk or something?

quote: The Internet is just one of the ways in which the post-Cold War era is superior to the pre-Cold War era.

Great argument!
Like it's the end of Cold war gave us internet, not evolution of technology.

	26-08-2003 12:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Sure, but I guess its still different from experience of American who never was to USSR. With you I'm ready to argue, with yanks who took their knowledge about SU from Hollywood movies I don't.

I don't think there's anything to argue about, unless you have been smoking the same **** LaRusso has

	26-08-2003 12:17									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk YES!!! Serb's back! *sits back with a BIG bowl of popcorn*

I've spent two weeks in Mingapulco and currently planning my sixth trip there. More probably I will never come back after this one. It took another two weeks for rehabilitation after last one.

	26-08-2003 12:25									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Pre-war the Serbs were only 25% of the population with Roma, croats, and Vlacks (a people who speak a latin based language; essentially what's left of the Romans in the Balkans) making up leass then 1%. Today Serbs make up around 10% largely due to many Serbs fleeing with the Yugoslav Army after the end of the Air War and then never coming back. Part of the reason the people didn't come back is some where afraid but part of it was also economic. You see Kosovo is the Mississippi of Yugoslavia and many of the Serbs who left found they could make more money by staying in Serbia proper so they didn't go back. Either way the Serbs haven't been the majority in Kosovo since the 1940's. The Albanians just have bigger families so the demographics shifted in their favor.

Albanians has no right to live there and to drow Serbs away. This land never belonged to Albanians, they always were strangers on this land. Kosovo it's native Serbian land a place where first Serbian king was crowned. What you've done it's ten times worse crime than Miloshevich's cleansings.

	26-08-2003 12:26									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Saras I don't think there's anything to argue about, unless you have been smoking the same **** LaRusso has

Are you sure?
I'm Russian imerialist after all.

	26-08-2003 12:33									#46
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I suppose you are equally upset with Russia's 19th century advance into Tartarstan? At least the Albanians became the majority through natural population growth and not through violent conquest.

	26-08-2003 14:15									#47
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Do you know how Tatarstan was called before Ivan IV conquered Kazan?

Hint for you: try find something about Golden Horde, Mongol invasion and about Tatar-Mongol occupation of Russia (as we call it).
EDIT: Try 16th century, not 19th and "Tatarstan", not "Tartarstan".

	26-08-2003 16:11									#48
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Che is right, Yugoslavia was on the peak of freedom for the individual in the late 80ies. But even earlier individual was relatively free if he/she was not a nationalist.

Though you are wrong on Kosovo, Milosevic is being tried for Kosovo, Croatia and Bosnia, in that order I think. Kosovo part of the trial is over.

Milosevic was never popular in say Croatia or Slovenia, only among the Serbs. Actually, when he came to power in Serbia it was on a wave of Serb nationalism. His rhetorics contributed to rising nationalism in other states too.

	26-08-2003 16:18									#49
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As for Kosovo, those who are justifying the cleansing and whitewashing the Serbs

Milosevic had already cleansened tens of thousands of people before he was bombed.

By the way, he was also the person who revoked the autonomy of Kosovo it had under Yugoslavian constitution thus encouraging the extremist Albanian groups such as UCK.

Kosovo problem goes way back and communist Yugoslavia poured huge money in it's infrastructure and economy to try and reduce poverty and Albanian nationalism there. All of the policemen in Kosovo were Serbian although they were a minority of population there (even prior to 1945 Oerdin).

The argument that 'Kings were crowned there' is weak to say the least. Wasn't German Reich proclaimed in Versailles?

Anyway it is demographics which defeated Serbs in Kosovo. Fault of nobody else but themselves.

	26-08-2003 16:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf What if the Iron Courtain still existed?

Then i probably wouldn´t be able to post here

	27-08-2003 01:19									#51
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Then i probably wouldn´t be able to post here

Neither would I.

	27-08-2003 01:20									#52
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I'd probably be under arrest for insurrection.

	27-08-2003 01:22									#53
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So the Soviet Union government was guilty of horrendous crimes that it committed against its own citizens.

But why isn't the United States guilty of repression and suppression in other countries where our government imposed puppet dictatorships?

	27-08-2003 01:31									#54
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Only hitlers germany rivals the USSR in that aspect.

	27-08-2003 02:16									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Because it was a quote, smartass.

Oh. I thought that it meant you didn't believe it because I was was going to tell you differently.

	27-08-2003 02:32									#56
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I've thought about this before. I'd be in the Free German Youth, the standard youth organisation for 15+ year olds in the GDR. Our Israelis would mostly be in the USSR still, with closed borders and especially bad relatiosn with the state of Israel.

It'd be fun, especially since I'd hardly ever come across Civ

Ideological debates would be a lot stronger in forums, with many people from actual communist countries posting, or at least some.

Interesting thoughts. About as much as those that involve a different end of the war

	27-08-2003 03:00									#57
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We spent way too much money on the military in the Cold War. Everybody did. We spend much, much less nowadays, so everybody makes out better in the end.

	27-08-2003 03:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS We spent way too much money on the military in the Cold War.

That was one of the the causes of the Cold War, not the other way around. We needed an excuse for our military Keynesianism, so we came up with the great Communist threat. The Cold War pulled us out of the post-WWII recession.

	27-08-2003 03:07									#59
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quote: That was one of the the causes of the Cold War, not the other way around. We needed an excuse for our military Keynesianism, so we came up with the great Communist threat. The Cold War pulled us out of the post-WWII recession.

I don't buy it. It doesn't pass the sniff test. Just look at the end of the Cold War. USSR collapses, US military spending plummets.

	27-08-2003 03:44									#60
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quote: It doesn't pass the sniff test.

Doesn't even pass the rational, non-conspiracy theory test .

quote: Albanians has no right to live there and to drow Serbs away. This land never belonged to Albanians, they always were strangers on this land.

Oh, so you admit you are a xenophobe?