26-08-2003 04:03									#1
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What if the Iron Courtain still existed?

A lot of people in the former communist countries seem to be longing back to the old days. After the fall of the IC their GDP dropped dramitically

Consequentially, the West wouldn't have to be bothered so much with (organised) crime from the East.


Maybe the two-super-powers-system was better? The Russians stared down the Americans and vice versa. There was a stalemate due to the balance of nuclear terror each country could unleash.

what are your thoughts?

Last edited by Gangerolf on 26-08-2003 at 04:26

	26-08-2003 04:07									#2
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What if the Iron Curtain still existed?! Are you mad?! For one, you would not have had to worry about at least the jelly doughnuts crying about the war as they would be shot any time they tried to speak at all unless it was sanctioned by the Soviet government. Millions would still be opressed by the Soviet regieme.
Remember, GDP is not everything. I would trade GDP for freedom anyday.

Barring that however I believe a two superpower system is important to maintain balance in the world (duh).

	26-08-2003 04:21									#3
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Yeah I think balance is important. You could argue that peace is most likely when there is a balance of power. Of course, I'm not saying that America is going to take on the world now that it is the sole Superpower. But you never know

	26-08-2003 09:18									#5
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The Cold War was not a great era.

It was during this period that the United States forced anti-communist dictatorships upon other peoples in other countries.

	26-08-2003 09:45									#6
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It is an extremely good thing the Cold War is over. With luck, the world will not have any new Nicaraguas now.

People who are missing the Soviet Union are deluded fools.

Of course, I'm not saying that America is going to take on the world now that it is the sole Superpower. But you never know

That will either end with Planet Cockroach or US conquered by the rest of the world. You are overestimating the Yankistani ubermenscht. Germans were technological leaders too, but inventing blitzkrieg and fielding superior armaments wasn't enough for world conquest.

	26-08-2003 09:55									#7
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The Cold War had it's good points. For the most part it forced 1st World countries to treat their working classes better, and hell, without the Cold War, the Civil Rights movement and feminism would have gotten nowhere in the US.

The Cold War did not change our behavior in the 3rd World. Before the Cold War we were overthrowing banana republics to install favorable governments and invading other countries willy-nilly, and we've continued to do so after the wall has fallen. The only thing the Cold War did was to give our normal activity an ideological cover. Instead of messing around for naked self-interest, our self-interest was properly covered.

	26-08-2003 09:58									#8
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Had the cold war continued, there would have been other hellholes à la Nicaragua, Angola, Vietnam, or pretty much anwhere there are Jungles.

For the many people who suffered from the proxy wars, the cold war wasn't cold at all

	26-08-2003 10:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo It is an extremely good thing the Cold War is over. With luck, the world will not have any new Nicaraguas now. People who are missing the Soviet Union are deluded fools. Of course, I'm not saying that America is going to take on the world now that it is the sole Superpower. But you never know That will either end with Planet Cockroach or US conquered by the rest of the world. You are overestimating the Yankistani ubermenscht. Germans were technological leaders too, but inventing blitzkrieg and fielding superior armaments wasn't enough for world conquest.

Are you blind or something?
What did we have during just last 4 years? Yugoslavia, Aghanistan and Iraq. Sonn will be Iran and Saudi Arabia.
USA started 3 wars during just four years. During which period of Cold war USA was so agressive?

Btw? I'm one of those "deluded fools" who missing USSR. As AH said once- "those were the days".

	26-08-2003 10:32									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm one of those "deluded fools"

Indeed... I hope you are joking.

The only thing you need to know about these communist regimes is that they tried to kill their citizens who attempted to leave the country. That says it all, IMHO.

Gangerolf, even though some people really seem to be longing for the old days, I can assure you that there are many who would trade GDP for freedom anyday, as Comrade Tassadar (is it ironic or what ) points out.

	26-08-2003 10:36									#11
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quote: What did we have during just last 4 years? Yugoslavia, Aghanistan and Iraq.

The only problem? I bet the people of those three countries will have a freer life (Yugoslavia is now a more democratic society, Afghanistan's women can now actually function in society, and Iraq will probably have some democracy in the future), unlike in the Cold War, where dictatorships were favored.

	26-08-2003 10:42									#12
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You can always count on Serb.

	26-08-2003 10:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Btw? I'm one of those "deluded fools"

Why the " " marks?

	26-08-2003 10:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What did we have during just last 4 years? Yugoslavia, Aghanistan and Iraq. The only problem? I bet the people of those three countries will have a freer life (Yugoslavia is now a more democratic society, Afghanistan's women can now actually function in society, and Iraq will probably have some democracy in the future), unlike in the Cold War, where dictatorships were favored.

Yugoslavia was a free society before. Bonsia, today, is less free than before the war (though much better than during), and Kosovo is considerably less free. Afganistan is only marginally better in some ways. In other ways it's just as bad for women as it was before the Taleban. Today they must fear rape and other crimes, and outside Kabul, they only got the uncertainty and crime without getting the freedom. In Iraq, while they no longer have to fear the knock in the middle of the night, they now lack potable water and electricity and free medicine. As in Bosnia and Kosovo, most of the services they received for free will be privatised at the point of an American bayonet.

Serb, probably the only comparable period in modern times would be the early-1970s, when Kissinger was in charge. We were still involved in Vietnam and Laos and just invaded Cambodia. And that's just the hot wars.

	26-08-2003 10:57									#15
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quote: Yugoslavia was a free society before.

I'm not talking about Tito's era. Why don't you ask the Albanians, Bosnians, Croats whether they were free under Milosevic?

quote: Afganistan is only marginally better in some ways. In other ways it's just as bad for women as it was before the Taleban. Today they must fear rape and other crimes, and outside Kabul, they only got the uncertainty and crime without getting the freedom.

Which is, of course, just as bad as being totally covered up and straying outdoors without a man leads to death .

quote: In Iraq, while they no longer have to fear the knock in the middle of the night, they now lack potable water and electricity and free medicine.

Most of which will be restored when the infrastructure gets up and running.

	26-08-2003 11:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yugoslavia was a free society before.

When?

	26-08-2003 11:04									#17
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Yugoslavia was most certainly not free. The only reason Yugoslavia didn't erupt into sectarian violence before the early 1990's is because Tito ruled with an iron fist and anyone who didn't espose Tito's brand of communism got "reeducated". BTW the US didn't start the Yugoslavian civil war and Bush Sr. let it go on for three years before he finally put an end to it. Kosovo was absolutely 100% justified in order to prevent Serbs cleansing yet another ethnic minority.

Afghanistan wasn't exactly or choice we had to respond to their terrorist attacks and we gave the Taliban several chances to hand over OBL in exchange for their continued existence. The only real unsupported offensive was Iraq and there things depend alot on your point of view.


Lastly, Kissinger made the right call in attacking the communist resupply routes in Loas and Camobia but he did it 6-7 years to late. You can't really say those countries were neutral when the VC used them as a training ground, resupply point, and base to attack from.

	26-08-2003 11:05									#18
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One thing I've read about the Cold War over and over again is that it was *unnatural* from the very beginning, in the sense that it forced nations into blocs, repressed natural ethnic tensions, and quelled other societal pressures.

What we're seeing today — more ethnic and religious conflict, struggles between the haves and have-nots — is actually supposed to be more representative of humanity than what we experienced during the Cold War.

Do I miss it? Most of the time. But there are certain times I wish the Soviet Union itself had remained intact — but Eastern Europe still freed from its dominion — because it might have been able to more effectively rein in the Islamic fundies who are now pretty much running amok in many of the SU's former southwestern Asian provinces. (Then again, Afghanistan proved that even the SU couldn't always keep the nutcases in check, particularly when they had the help of U.S. equipment and a government that took the route of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" w/o the foresight to see what might happen later ... Sept. 11, 2001.)

Gatekeeper

P.S. But, hey, with Red China rising fairly fast, maybe the good old two-superpower system will return w/i a few decades!

	26-08-2003 11:09									#19
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I don't see a bi-polar world reemerging. Instead we're likely to return to the normal multipolar world with the EU, China, The US, and India being big players with Russia, Japan, Korea, and Brazil being large regional powers. 50 years from now it's going to be all about balance of power.

	26-08-2003 11:13									#20
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That could be interesting. Back to the set-up of the early 1900s!

	26-08-2003 11:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yugoslavia was most certainly not free.

In the 1990s, there were reasonably free elections in Yugoslavia. If there weren't, how were pro-nationalist, seperatist majorities able to take control of Slovania, Croatia, Bosnia, etc.? If it wasn't free, it couldn't broken apart. I'm not saying it was completely free, but it wasn't the complete dictatorship we had spoon fed to us in the West. Even up to the very end, Milosevic was very popular.

There is little evidence that Yugoslavia was planning on ethnically cleansing the Kosovar Albanians. No mass graves have been found and the supposed massacre that Clinton used as a pretext turns out to have not been a massacre at all. Rather dead KLA fighters were displayed as if they had been massacred.

The reverse was true, however. The KLA was planning on expelling everyone else from Kosovo, and they have succeeded. Formerly 90% of the population, today they are 99% of the population. Even before civil war broke out there, my Jewish friends who had family in Kosovo were telling me about the Albanian terrorism that was going on. I discounted a lot of it as rumor, but there was something going on. Nor is it the fault of the Serbian government if the Albanian population pulled their children out of schools, refused to use the health clinics, etc. They made their own lives more miserable, then proclaimed they were being persecuted.

quote: Afghanistan wasn't exactly or choice we had to respond to their terrorist attacks and we gave the Taliban several chances to hand over OBL in exchange for their continued existence.

I'm not arguing that. Imran said they were more free, that's all I disputed. As far s I'm concerned, Afganistan aided and abetted a massacre in the United States. I did not oppose the war, just how it was conducted. I am also very disappointed with the post-war conduct, as it doesn't seem to be doing much to turn Afganistan into the kind of place where terrorists won't be able to base themselves.

quote: Lastly, Kissinger made the right call in attacking the communist resupply routes in Loas and Camobia but he did it 6-7 years to late. You can't really say those countries were neutral when the VC used them as a training ground, resupply point, and base to attack from.

We were in Laos from the very begining, almost as long as we were in Vietnam. We were there to fight the Pathet Lao, not stop the meager supplies headed to the South. The later was the reason we invaded Cambodia, and that so badly destabilized the military dicatorship that we had installed there that it fell only a few years later to the Khmer Rouge. Not a good call.

	26-08-2003 11:23									#22
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Anyway, Vietnam was an illegitimate war, so anything done to further it was likewise illegitimate.

	26-08-2003 11:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by delmar Indeed... I hope you are joking. The only thing you need to know about these communist regimes is that they tried to kill their citizens who attempted to leave the country. That says it all, IMHO.

Unfortunatelly most of my knowledge about SU based on my own experience, not on such great source as Hollywood movies.

	26-08-2003 11:27									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What did we have during just last 4 years? Yugoslavia, Aghanistan and Iraq. The only problem? I bet the people of those three countries will have a freer life (Yugoslavia is now a more democratic society, Afghanistan's women can now actually function in society, and Iraq will probably have some democracy in the future), unlike in the Cold War, where dictatorships were favored.

Yep, sure I guess Serbs are very happy about American bombardments.
http://grid.ecoinfo.ru/webint_eng/b...s.htm#HIROSHIMA - EIGHT TIMES

Do you need photos of "happy" Iraqis?

	26-08-2003 11:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [Q] Originally posted by Oerdin There is little evidence that Yugoslavia was planning on ethnically cleansing the Kosovar Albanians. No mass graves have been found and the supposed massacre that Clinton used as a pretext turns out to have not been a massacre at all. Rather dead KLA fighters were displayed as if they had been massacred.

The UCK (KLA) was a rabidly nationalist group of that there could be no doubt. However there were mass graves. As a KFOR soldier I saw UN experts excavating a mass grave near Mugila in the Iron Triangle (an area which is not far for what is now Camp Bondsteel).

	26-08-2003 11:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin You can always count on Serb.

Any time.

	26-08-2003 11:35									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why the " " marks?

Because it was a quote, smartass.

	26-08-2003 11:39									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The UCK (KLA) was a rabidly nationalist group of that there could be no doubt. However there were mass graves. As a KFOR soldier I saw UN experts excavating a mass grave near Mugila in the Iron Triangle (an area which is not far for what is now Camp Bondsteel).

And yet not one single news article back in the states crowing about how they finally found the evidence? The FBI left Kosovo without finding a single mass grave and the Spanish team the UN had in there left saying, there are no mass graves here. Ultimately, they had to define mass grave as: any grave with more than one body.

Now it's true, they did find quite a few graves with as many as ten bodies or so. Few of them showed signs of execution or toture, which would be consistant with a campaign of genocide. Most of the bodies appeared to have been buried, not in secret by Serbian forces, but rather by families. Being poor and in the middle of a war zone, they tended to be efficient with their holes and people would put multiple people in one grave, bury them, and then get back under cover.

Many of those uncovered were killed by bomb schrapnel, some died of old age. Others were killed in battles with Serbian police and the Yugoslav army (people like to forget that there was a war going on there). Some were executed, no doubt, by both sides. If, however, there was a evidence of a campgain of ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, however, we would expect to see added charges against Milosevic. AFAIK, he's only being tried about what happened in Bosnia and Croatia (could be wrong about that, though).

Of course, maybe the Serbs took all the bodies of the people they executed back to Serbia. Why then, hasn't the post-Milosevic government produced them to further delegitimize the previous government?

	26-08-2003 11:44									#29
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Yes, there were but they bodies number dozens and not hundreds like in Bosnia. Several were found. Another favorite Serb trick was to surround Albanian towns and give the people one hour to leave or they said they'd kill them. As the people left they were robbed, their identy papers were taken away, and there were several cases of rape. After the towns were looted the homes were blown up just to make sure the Albanians didn't come back. Another favorite trick was to mine the border areas and then tell the refugees they could either run across the mine field or be shot. Most choice to take their chances with the mine field.

	26-08-2003 11:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm not talking about Tito's era. Why don't you ask the Albanians, Bosnians, Croats whether they were free under Milosevic?

Why don't you ask the Serbs or Christians how are they living in Kosovo now(a land which rightfully belongs to Serbs) under an occupation of Albanian religious fanatics.
Oh wait a minute, there are few of them left in Kosovo. Most of them ran away or were slain by your beloved freedom fighters.

quote: Most of which will be restored when the infrastructure gets up and running.

Don't make me laugh. Sure, USA always take care about its slaves and as long as Iraqis oil industry will be privatized by US compaines and yanks will start to f*ck-up Iraqis land pumping out everything that has value, Iraqis will live much better, right?