26-08-2003 08:32									#1
	MSN - Idea brainstorming for terraformers and SE settings Support Apolyton

John says:
nah we just need more terraformers
Vev says:
support 4
John says:
yep
Vev says:
once boreholes and condensors are up, the -1 industry shouldn't be that much of a problem?
Vev says:
while running power
John says:
hrmm
John says:
maybe
Vev says:
we can both attack and maintain an army of formers
John says:
heh
John says:
if we get clean reactors
John says:
we can convert all the terraformers to clean reactors.
Vev says:
with power, and decent base size that is a lot of formers
Vev says:
not all
Vev says:
just some
Vev says:
i imagine upgrade will be hideously huge like 2000 EC
Vev says:
need cloning vats
John says:
well not that bad
Vev says:
size 7 cities with power
Vev says:
how much does it take to upgrade 34 formers
John says:
power gives + support?
Vev says:
yes
Vev says:
+2 morale, +2 support, -2 industry
Vev says:
so with police state, +4 support
Vev says:
and if with large cities - bonus!
John says:
that's really cool
Vev says:
would the pirates go for PEG?
Vev says:
running power would mean -1 industry
Vev says:
wait, 0
Vev says:
0 industry
John says:
power instead of what?
Vev says:
*imagines a horde of 80 formers, drilling boreholes and raising land like mad*
Vev says:
wealth
John says:
hrmm okay
John says:
we would be at 0 industry
John says:
not -1
John says:
because we would still be running planned
John says:
80 terraformers is too much in my experience
Vev says:
imagine the land we can raise!
John says:
you only need like 50 until you get monorails
Vev says:
why need boats when you have terraformer army!
John says:
because it's too hard finding tasks for all those terraformers to do.
John says:
heh
Vev says:
more land!
John says:
yeah we'll terraform the sea away from the pirates!

Vev says:

Vev says:
My beautiful kelp and tidal harness!
John says:
heh
Vev says:
and deliberately terraform on the west side to make it dry too
Vev says:
oh well
Vev says:
bizzare fantasies
John says:
heh
John says:
I would go with a ring system
John says:
divide the map in half with land we control
Vev says:
the cost would be interesting
John says:
nah the cost wouldn't be that bad
John says:
hrmm power -3 industry
Vev says:
for a normal factoin
Vev says:
wait?
Vev says:
for a cult
John says:
we could probably go for clean reactors
John says:
no I mean for the hive.
John says:
switch from wealth to power
John says:
is -3 industry
Vev says:
but if we are going on a warpath?
John says:
well I'm not sure anymore
John says:
the hive is divided on the issue
Vev says:
how much to upgrade to clean reactor for one former at +3 industry?
John says:
industry doesn't matter for upgrads
Vev says:
yes it does
John says:
nope it doesn't
John says:
I've checked
John says:
upgrad cost is the same
John says:
build cost is cheaper
Vev says:
-1 and 0 have differences with crawlers
John says:
really?
John says:
it doesn't make a difference when I compared with +2 and +3
John says:
or +0 I think I also did
Vev says:
I was finding a way to minimise cost/mineral
John says:
to minimise cost per mineral we build them clean in the first place
John says:
and spend the ECs rush building facilities
Vev says:
it might have been my cost/minerals
Vev says:
how much to upgrade to wait...
Vev says:
we done have those tech
Vev says:
ah well
Vev says:
what is our turn per turn?
Vev says:
I need a rough guide
John says:
10 turns per tech
Vev says:
so in 30 turns we have bio-eng?
John says:
if we beelined
John says:
but I think we want ecological engineering
John says:
or flex first
Vev says:
by then in 30 turn we would have like +10-16 bases
Vev says:
okay maybe 10
John says:
yeah but costs keep increasing too
Vev says:
not for colony pods
John says:
depends on how much I mircomanage
John says:
I mean tech costs keep increasing
Vev says:
which means even more time to build more bases and formers
Vev says:
making it a total of 24 bases each with approx 2 formers making it 48 formers
John says:
I think we should try and build more terraformers
John says:
we have 9 terraformers 8 bases
John says:
I reckon we should have 16 terraformers
Vev says:
how would the clean reactor upgrade be done?
Vev says:
instantly or gradually?
John says:
depends on how much energy we have
John says:
I think it'll be done gradually
Vev says:
even with 30 cost/former with 40 would cost 1200 EC
John says:
I wonder if I can have mutiple terraformers
John says:
designs
John says:
so I can upgrade sections individually
John says:
I'm not sure of the upgrad cost
John says:
I think it's time to do tests
Vev says:
pity that involves more cost
Vev says:
find a cheap ability to tack onto tje former
John says:
it costs 30
John says:
each time
John says:
darn it you can't make multiple copies of the same design.
John says:
that would make partial upgrading easier.
Vev says:
we would be wasting 30ECs
John says:
why is that?
John says:
posting this MSN conversation
Vev says:
to make separate designs
John says:
nope
John says:
don't you see
John says:
if we make seperate designs
John says:
we don't have to pay the full cost of the upgrade
John says:
all at once
Vev says:
do they cost the same?
John says:
we can upgrade sections
Vev says:
each design?
John says:
well you can't make seperate designs
John says:
which is what my point was
Vev says:
you can
Vev says:
just more expensive manner
John says:
not for the same unit
John says:
yeah it's has armor or something
Vev says:
or ability
John says:
we just want the same basic design
John says:
that we can upgrade
John says:
so we can upgrade 9 terraformers at a time
John says:
rather than say 30
Vev says:
nup, I thought separate design means a completely different thing
John says:
which would cost us 900ECs to upgrade all at once
John says:
oh
John says:
I'm not sure about the top part
Vev says:
unless there is a unity former
Vev says:
but no there isn't
John says:
I mean about there power thing
John says:
we discussed earlier
John says:
would it be worth getting -3 industry
Vev says:
especially if we go warpath at the same time
John says:
maybe
Vev says:
it is frustrating in a way that unity rovers are not scout rovers
John says:
I'll put it up to octavain to mull over.
Vev says:
have to manually upgrade unity rovers
John says:
*nod*
Vev says:
anyway we are a bit away from AMA
Vev says:
is pre-sentient algo before AMA?
John says:
AMA?
Vev says:
advance military algo

	26-08-2003 12:12									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, one thing we DON'T need to worry about is clean reactors. We have great support anyway, and not masses of cash, so we can forget those Morganite tools, and spend our cash elsewhere.

Re : Power vs Wealth :

We really should consider Power as an option when the time comes to go to war. Sure we lose 2 industry, taking us from +3 to +1, BUT each base will be paying slightly less minerals as support, which offsets the industry hit slightly. We'll still have better industry than the Uni, assuming they're running Demo/FM/Knowledge, and all our units will become 25% stronger immediately. If we can get the Command Nexus too, that would give us another 2 levels of morale, and if each unit is sure to visit a monolith too, we'll have LOTS of elite units. Sure, they'll cost 20% more to build, but they'll be 50% better, and get an extra move. If we REALLY have to, we could run Fundy as well, but I think it would only be nessesscary if either we don't get the CN, or we don't want to build Command Centres in our millitary bases.

-Jam

	26-08-2003 13:04									#3
	Got spare money?

Well I would like to upgrade some of our terraformers to clean. Military shouldn't need upgrading to clean.

	26-08-2003 18:16									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: *imagines a horde of 80 formers, drilling boreholes and raising land like mad*

In a PBEM I was in (partnering big_canuck versus Tau Ceti and Misotu), b_c was the Hive and built some 200+ formers, In one turn he terraformed an 11-tile landbridge to TC's continent, with roads and magrails, and then took nineteen of TC's 24 bases (which were also mag-rail linked) including his HQ, leaving the other five empty of defenders. Afterwards he said he'd "miscalculated" as he'd planned to leave just one base with 1 defender (to allow TC to destroy the base thus gracefully exiting the PBEM)

He said it took him 5 hours to plan and play the turn

It was awesome, and really blindsided Tau

G.

	26-08-2003 18:23									#5
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*chuckle*

My crowning terraforming achievement was aquafying the entire middle continent in the huge planet map (the one with the manifold nexus).

The hardest part was making sure I started the adjacent aquafier before I finished the next one. It took me 1 week of playing 6 hours per day moving terraformers around (admitedly because it was partly because it was the 2nd game I had ever played).

As for Civ1, I railroaded the entire map and added all the possible improvements to every square. Also I railroaded most of the sea too since it increased sea trade by 1. I like my terraforming.

	26-08-2003 18:24									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Oh yeah 5 hours to plan turns? Bah that's nothing to what I usually spend.

	27-08-2003 01:06									#7
	Support Apolyton

Any other opinions RE Wealth vs. Power? I could see using wealth at the moment, simply because we aren't building military forces. However, once we begin to plan an invasion, we should switch to power...

	27-08-2003 05:23									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Or madly terraforming to prevent an insidious player from drowning your land. It is amazing how putty-like Chiron, not to mention amazing amount of water.

	27-08-2003 08:53									#9
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I agree with Jamski, we should consider Power seriously in times of war. And as the Hive we may well want to exploit our military power for the purposes of this game. Peace is fine, but war can gain us considerable rewards.