27-08-2003 21:02									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Their main strengths are actually [b[having[/b] an immigration policy, and also being truly against crime rather than for the criminal. Tell me another party in Britain that is the above.

The Conservative Party.

	27-08-2003 21:07									#32
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quote: being truly against crime rather than for the criminal

The current justice system is far more objective than the BNP's ideal. The latter becomes pro-victim, anti criminal by default, which, by definition, becomes vigilantism - another example of populist policies that have not been thought through. I think the BNP are the perfect example of the democracy fallacy. In many cases, just because something is popular doesn't make it right. Thats not to say that all of democracy is a fallacy, but so many lame decisions are taken to appease the "true nobility of the masses" .

And the BNP's asylum policy has clearly not been thought through economically, I would postulate that it is a balancing act of the will of the population of various Northern pubs, and the degree of political correctness required for mass support. Neither of which constitute a basis for good decision making.

Economically speaking, asylum seekers are the best thing that could happen to this country!

	27-08-2003 21:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by elijah Economically speaking, asylum seekers are the best thing that could happen to this country!

Do you mean the gang warfare or the prostitution and drug rings?

	27-08-2003 21:12									#34
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Economically speaking. Reminds me of the Bristol meeting.

Andy-Man, I think he's referring to the fact that the NHS would be on it's knees were it not for immigrant workers... er... even more on it's knees.

	27-08-2003 21:13									#35
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quote: Do you mean the gang warfare or the prostitution and drug rings?

I mean as soon as we allow them to work (reducing much of the crime/social problems), they can contribute to the British economy, which in terms of population, is deep in the brown stuff. More elderly people, less people being born, less people of working age to support those who need it. Asylum is the obvious and best solution.

Culturally imo its fantastic too, new people, new ideas, no concepts. Not the dilution of a fallacious notion of "English culture" etc, the only thing we can say is English is our ability to assimilate new cultures into the conglomerate of our own!

	27-08-2003 21:14									#36
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And what MikeH said!

	27-08-2003 21:14									#37
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"the only thing we can say is English is our ability to assimilate new cultures into the conglomerate of our own!"

No, that's American.

See, their culture swamps ours yet again.

	27-08-2003 21:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Economically speaking. Reminds me of the Bristol meeting. Andy-Man, I think he's referring to the fact that the NHS would be on it's knees were it not for immigrant workers... er... even more on it's knees.

yeah, cos thr govt. don't offer high enough wages for nurses and doctors.
But economic immigranbts i am fine with, its the albanians pretending to be Kosovans and etc bringing their crime and stuff over here, not to mention things like councils banning the Union Jack cos it would offend people

	27-08-2003 21:17									#39
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quote: I mean as soon as we allow them to work (reducing much of the crime/social problems), they can contribute to the British economy

They do work, on the sly, whilst picking up benefits, selling crack and pimping.

	27-08-2003 21:18									#40
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The Union Jack offends me but only because it's become a symbol of the fascist groups in this country.

The government don't offer high enough wages for nurses because if they raised taxes enough to pay for them people would vote them out and vote in a tax cutting party. So that's our fault as voters.

	27-08-2003 21:20									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH The Union Jack offends me but only because it's become a symbol of the fascist groups in this country. The government don't offer high enough wages for nurses because if they raised taxes enough to pay for them people would vote them out and vote in a tax cutting party. So that's our fault as voters.

nope, the govt should do more to get rid of needless NHS spending, administrators and such. A hospital should be just Doctors and nurses.

	27-08-2003 21:20									#42
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quote: No, that's American. See, their culture swamps ours yet again.

That American phenomenon is a mixture of necessity and us. We have been assimilating cultures into our own, and making a grand success of it for over 3000 years.

quote: its the albanians pretending to be Kosovans and etc bringing their crime and stuff over here

And more importantly, their women! Honestly you should see some of the immigrant chicks in Northampton . You assume theyre all criminals, but there are causes behind that. If they are allowed to work, much of that will go away, directly and indirectly.

quote: councils banning the Union Jack cos it would offend people

Not happened exactly often though. Yes that is wrong, one should not ban symbols simply because they may offend people, but rather, choose to put them up or down depending on the wisdom of a given situation. If it aids peoples integration, then so be it. The last thing we want to do is make these people feel like prisoners or guests. They should feel at home imo.

	27-08-2003 21:22									#43
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quote: And more importantly, their women! Honestly you should see some of the immigrant chicks in Northampton . You assume theyre all criminals, but there are causes behind that. If they are allowed to work, much of that will go away, directly and indirectly.

But they do Work!! I just said. And at the same time claim benefits. You see em, a guy in a ferrari pull up outside the doll office to collecting his cash, then he drives back to the house he gets FREE cos he's 'out of work'.

Have you been to london latley....

	27-08-2003 21:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man nope, the govt should do more to get rid of needless NHS spending, administrators and such. A hospital should be just Doctors and nurses.

Really? Good thing you aren't in charge. So, for instance, who orders medicines when they run out? Who works out the budgets etc.? Who works out shift rotas? You want Doctors and nurses to take time out from treating patients to do a job that would be trivial to a much cheaper to employ, and less highly trained administrator? You can't run a hospital without some administration. NHS administration is more efficient (costwise) than most private companies, it has to be because they have no money.

	27-08-2003 21:25									#45
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quote: They do work, on the sly, whilst picking up benefits, selling crack and pimping.

They? Or a tiny minority? . They should be able to work legitimately. Needless to say, they means a cessation of benefits, and instead, they, through taxes are contributing to the UK.

quote: The Union Jack offends me but only because it's become a symbol of the fascist groups in this country

And I, but thats only a personal thing

quote: nope, the govt should do more to get rid of needless NHS spending, administrators and such. A hospital should be just Doctors and nurses.

Then the hospital wouldn't be able to operate. Each hospital is a business, and businesses need bureaucracy to a point. They are c0ck ups, there are mistakes, and their are many, many inefficiencies and failings, but none of that even comes close to justifying the "born to fail" politics of the BNP.

	27-08-2003 21:30									#46
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quote: But they do Work!! I just said. And at the same time claim benefits. You see em, a guy in a ferrari pull up outside the doll office to collecting his cash, then he drives back to the house he gets FREE cos he's 'out of work'.

You think thats a situation unique to immigrants?! . We only notice it with them because they look different!

If theyre in work, they shouldn't get benefits. That goes with anything. It doesnt need a change in asylum policy, it needs more efficiency in social services. If theyre tax dodging, they should be treated no different to other tax dodgers.

If the proportion of criminals in immigrants is higher, we should address the situation here, not use it as an excuse to make draconian rules of entry to satisfy the insecurities of pseudo-racist, simple minded cretins!

	27-08-2003 21:51									#47
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Don't you guys think we have enough people in this country as it is?

	27-08-2003 21:56									#48
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No, Britains can feasibly support just over 100 million people before population-related problems occur. Probably a lot more than that if we reorganise the way we live etc.

Like I said, economically, we need asylum seekers, as the WWII generation dies, the 60's generation takes their place, the situation will become even more severe without more workers.

If the argument against asylum falls to population then the BNP is truly in intellectual dire straights. Not that it is a party that is dependent on intellectual muscle though .

	27-08-2003 21:58									#49
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"No, Britains can feasibly support just over 100 million people before population-related problems occur"

What problems?

Why are you so sure 100 million is the magic number?

	27-08-2003 22:05									#50
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quote: What problems?

Too many people, pollution, severe transportation problems, social, police, education, health etc services not being able to cope if they cant increase in size accordingly, the balance of supply and demand being screwed up so imports become more important.

Admittedly, transport is a problem now, but not one that can't be dealt with relatively easily as soon as we throw Prescott into the North Sea.

quote: Why are you so sure 100 million is the magic number?

Well look at feasible construction/housing future projects, expansion of towns, in the very very long term (we are talking centuries here to get up to that figure) more people moving to high rise permanent accomodation (I'm not talking about delapadated '50s "ode to shoebox" buildings).

A conservative estimate would be 90-100 million people, realistically probably more, bit of a squeeze, and if we disregard the environment and countryside, the belt can be further loosensed.

Either way, even if the figure was far lower, say 65-70 million, asylum would not make much of a dent in that. Compare the influx per hour to the number of people being born in the same time!

	27-08-2003 22:07									#51
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quote: Too many people, pollution, severe transportation problems, social, police, education, health etc services not being able to cope if they cant increase in size accordingly, the balance of supply and demand being screwed up so imports become more important.

Thanks.

	27-08-2003 22:09									#52
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Bodds: Fundamentally, the major problem is one of pollution, secondly, the changes required in the way we live. The above figure is based on the two above not changing drastically in the next 150-200 or so years. The amount of building required to cope with 100 million people is huge but as it will happen at a gradual pace, it won't be painful.

Nonetheless, in my lifetime, I'd be suprised if the population gets beyond 80 million, asylum or otherwise.

	28-08-2003 04:34									#53
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Europe MUST have immigration or else it's population will shrink because the birthrate is less than 2 per woman. Natives wont work for the low paying jobs either.

BTW, why isn't the US's birthrate dropping? It is still around 2.3 I think. I think people should have no more than 2 kids, we need to reduce the world's population, it is going Malthusian.

	28-08-2003 04:47									#54
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quote: Economically speaking. Reminds me of the Bristol meeting.

As to the BNP, I can't see how it's any worse than the Lib Dems or Tories or Labour or anyone else in British politics - they are all morally horrendous in my opinion.

	28-08-2003 05:01									#55
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David Floyd: I'm not talking about morality, I don't see the BNP as particularly immoral in my opinion, although obviously I dont like their race-relation policies, nor the sheer number of members (and thus influence) that are overtly racist. The sheen of poltical correctness causes it be covert at worse, but that will change if (heaven forbid) they get into any position of power.

I dislike the BNP because the policies are complete and utter bull. That is something all the main parties bar the Lib Dems for the most part, are guilty of, but to a much greater extent with the BNP.

	28-08-2003 05:11									#56
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quote: I dislike the BNP because the policies are complete and utter bull. That is something all the main parties bar the Lib Dems for the most part, are guilty of, but to a much greater extent with the BNP.

I'd say the Lib Dems and Labour are at least as bad as the BNP in terms of their policies. I mean, come on - NHS? It doesn't even work!

	28-08-2003 05:39									#57
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quote: I'd say the Lib Dems and Labour are at least as bad as the BNP in terms of their policies. I mean, come on - NHS? It doesn't even work!

Now I'm not a person to set about willingly defending the NHS, but be fair. They are working incredibly well and efficiently considering how badly underfunded, understaffed and underbedded they are. All that requires is a large injection of cash. It does not require the BNP.

FYI, the lib dems have a more proactive policy over the NHS than Labour. That means more money .

	28-08-2003 11:22									#58
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd As to the BNP, I can't see how it's any worse than the Lib Dems or Tories or Labour or anyone else in British politics

Show me a convicted nailbomber on the national executives of any other party and I might agree. Otherwise I'll just take that as further proof that you've been driven mad by the inflexibility of your own logic.

	28-08-2003 11:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Their main strengths are actually having an immigration policy, and also being truly against crime rather than for the criminal. Tell me another party in Britain that is the above.

The only drawback is that if they actually practised what they preach, they'd have to execute two of their most senior members, and imprison several others.

	28-08-2003 11:42									#60
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Yes, being a fascist thug that wants to throw out immigrants is just as bad as supporting the NHS.