27-08-2003 00:44									#31
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What was that about broken clocks...

	27-08-2003 00:45									#32
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Huh?

	27-08-2003 00:46									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So how come all the people you see running amok at G8 meetings and striking blows against oppression by looting a Starbucks are disctinctly white and American or European looking?

Because most people in the G7 + Russia are white. It's not like they have their meetings in the 3rd World. Plus, when you work for a dollar a day, it's hard to save up the thousand bucks for the flight to the US just to protest.

quote: Uh, you don't live in maquiladoras, you work there. Maybe one of these days I ought to drive around and take photos of some of these local hellholes, too.

What, because you live in a priveleged section of Mexico, the whole country is nice? Several of my friends worked in the maquila areas, and their description of the place was not pleasant. People using industral waste barrels for collecting drinking water water, open ditches as sewers, cardboard housing, etc. BTW, you should know that maquilas are areas, not just the factories wihin them.

quote: And yeah, you'd better not try to organize anything in FARC territory in Colombia that the FARC doesn't approve of.

Half of all labor organizers in the world that are killed are killed in Columbia. I expect that a very small percentage of them are killed by the FARC. While they certainly aren't my first choice for a revolutionary group to support, they are superior to every other option the average Columbian has.

quote: Where?

The Brazil anti-Davros protests, for example. The Bolivian water anti-privitastion proitests, the unrest in the RoK and Indonesia when their currencies tanked, etc.

	27-08-2003 00:51									#34
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Labor protests in the third wolrd are far more vicious than in the first world: heck, seattle was a party compared to what happened in Panama when the gov. moved to repeal labor laws and make it easier for multinaitonals to hire (I didn;t see any police trucks firebombed in Seattle). Or take Bolivia peasants and their protests (how many people die in these "huge" first world scuffles?).

That said, people in the third world prefer work to no work, even work that does not give them any sort of benefits nor environmental protection, and overall they are better off long term as well. Of course, much better than making it easy for multinationals t come in and hire would be to drop trade barriers to goods from the third world. That is where the true hypocrasy lies when it comes to international development.

	27-08-2003 00:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Huh?

The old "Even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day". Recently used by someone here to describe, quite correctly, FOX "news".

	27-08-2003 00:57									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That said, people in the third world prefer work to no work, even work that does not give them any sort of benefits nor environmental protection, and overall they are better off long term as well. Of course, much better than making it easy for multinationals t come in and hire would be to drop trade barriers to goods from the third world. That is where the true hypocrasy lies when it comes to international development.

Amen, brother GePap. France and CAP

	27-08-2003 00:59									#37
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler The old "Even a broken clock shows the correct time twice a day". Recently used by someone here to describe, quite correctly, FOX "news".

But I was serious abouyt IMF Vilnius mission and the overall job they did to ensure a semblance (and for the last 2-3 years, a reality) of fiscal and monetary stability.

	27-08-2003 01:07									#38
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Ok, now we need just one other instance.

	27-08-2003 01:08									#39
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Easy. Estonia. Even better.

	27-08-2003 01:23									#40
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Estonia? The IMF played some role wrt the currency board, I think, but else?

	27-08-2003 01:26									#41
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Check their budget deficit history. They haven't issued a single bond in Euromarkets until this year and there's no treasury bill market. They managed to grow without fiscal stimulus and grow they DID!

But that's more due to their "Calvinist" mindset than IMF

	27-08-2003 01:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Uh, you don't live in maquiladoras, you work there. Maybe one of these days I ought to drive around and take photos of some of these local hellholes, too. What, because you live in a priveleged section of Mexico, the whole country is nice? Several of my friends worked in the maquila areas, and their description of the place was not pleasant. People using industral waste barrels for collecting drinking water water, open ditches as sewers, cardboard housing, etc. BTW, you should know that maquilas are areas, not just the factories wihin them.

The maquila decree and it's recent modification regarding services maquilas only applies to the business enterprises themselves. The rest of the public and private property within the maquila zones is subject to the same municipal, state and federal controls as any other property.

Oh, and "privileged" section of Mexico, lol. We have the "privilege" of being a tax revenue exporter for the rest of the country, coupled with a little political retaliation for being the first state in Mexico to throw off the PRI.

As far as your friends working there, perhaps they could describe how things were so much better in the pre-maquila days.

quote: Half of all labor organizers in the world that are killed are killed in Columbia. I expect that a very small percentage of them are killed by the FARC. While they certainly aren't my first choice for a revolutionary group to support, they are superior to every other option the average Columbian has.

Which (a) doesn't give numbers, and (b) doesn't get into what else they do in the midst of a de facto multiparty civil war. Given the history of performance of "revolutionary" groups in Latinamerica, I doubt they're superior to much of anything. Not that there seems to be any good options, but being less worse just isn't something I'd endorse.

quote: quote: Where? The Brazil anti-Davros protests, for example. The Bolivian water anti-privitastion proitests, the unrest in the RoK and Indonesia when their currencies tanked, etc.

And how many of those were "anti-globalisation" protests per se, instead of protests at specific abuses with only indirect connection to globalization. Bolivian anti-water protests. Sure, privatization sucked in that case, but it's always nice for a government with a hyperinflationary history and long-term stagnation to subsidize particular services regardless of it's ability to afford to do so.

The currency issues in the RoK and Indonesia were driven by massive internal political corruption and cronyism, which in and of itself had nothing to do with globalisation or trade.

	27-08-2003 02:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't think these MNC's are as evil as these people say... and most of these protestors are nutbags, but their arguments are quite valid. It's a shame they have to act like dipshits and hurt their own cause. But if all these foreign peoples are being exploited and treated like slaves, then they should strike and refuse to work... start a labor movement like the US did in the early 20th century. It's just like Democracy... labor reform has to come from the people. And it might be hard for many to realize, but it's the peoples' own damn fault if they allow themselves to be slaves. I'm not going to blame some faceless company for using cheaper labor. If they were forced to use domestic labor, prices would be so much higher that people would be *****ing about high prices. And since Americans aren't willing enough to pay higher prices for their goods, in the end, the consumer is the one to blame.

My allotment of one agreement with Sava per month just got used up

	27-08-2003 02:37									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The currency issues in the RoK and Indonesia were driven by massive internal political corruption and cronyism, which in and of itself had nothing to do with globalisation or trade.

In both cases the specific crises were caused by international investors bailing on the local currencies. The protests weren't so much anti-globalization as anti what globalization had just done to them. If these countries hadn't obeyed the IMF, it's unlikely their currencies would have tanked so hard, and the IMF is the whip-master of globalization. Compare and contrast to Malaysia, with all the same problems as the rest of the PacRim, and yet their currncy didn't crash and their recession wasn't as long as their neighbors, because they refused to follow the IMF's "advice."

As for the performance of revolutionary groups in Latin America, they've certainly had a better record than whomever the U.S. has supported.

	27-08-2003 03:32									#45
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a lot of protestors are naive to what the third world needs. that being said a company will more or less be as evil as u let them be or as they think they can get away w/ in the longterm.

I would support the west tarrifing against rampant corruption and unsafe working conditions. but against simply paying them less.

	27-08-2003 03:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon a lot of protestors are naive to what the third world needs.

As opposed to you?

	27-08-2003 03:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As opposed to you?

so its true, u really do love me! hug?

	27-08-2003 03:36									#48
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Awwwww.

	27-08-2003 03:36									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Quick summary: Poll results show that people in the 3rd world actually have a rather positive view of multination corporations & "globalization," and most of the opposition is in the developed West. -Arrian

I think just about everyone already knew this. The 3rd world has a choice between grinding poverty or slightly less grinding poverty. The only reason a corporation would set up shop in most third world countries (and pay higher transportation costs, risk currency flucations, and possible political or economic instability) is because they might make more money in the long run. The protesters want to push up wages and benifets after which there would be little to know reason for Multinationals to be there.

	27-08-2003 03:36									#50
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quote: Oh my god, I think you're right.

*points*

HAW HAW!

	27-08-2003 03:41									#51
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quote: Uh, you don't live in maquiladoras, you work there. Maybe one of these days I ought to drive around and take photos of some of these local hellholes, too.

Yep, Tiajuna has become a huge manufacturing center thanks to the Maquiladoras. I recall that the San Diego/Tiajuna area has become the largest televison manufacturing center in the world. 30 years ago they were all on the American side of the border and now Sony's factory in Rancho Bernardo is the only one not located in TJ.

Mostly it's now American engineers and mangers with Mexican workers.

	27-08-2003 03:43									#52
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. . . and one day, the American engineers and managers will be gone and it will be a fully mexican staff.

	27-08-2003 03:57									#53
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quote: He points to a significant decrease in the number of the world’s extreme poor since 1980.

Is it any wonder that poverty rates started a sharp decline right after globalization really picked up steam?

Lawrence: Saddly that is most likely true. In San Diego the two big traditional industries were Aerospace and TVs. The TVs factories have moved just over the border so now the educated classes must commute to factories in Mexico and the Aerospace industry has declined to the point where we no longer have a single Air Craft Factory in town just suppliers and things like satalite or missile factories.

It's really kind of sad. We in San Diego built the first plane to fly across the Atlantic, we built the first plane to fly across the Pacific, we built the rockets which took man to the moon, and now we don't build much of anything any more.

	27-08-2003 04:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yep, Tiajuna has become a huge manufacturing center thanks to the Maquiladoras. I recall that the San Diego/Tiajuna area has become the largest televison manufacturing center in the world. 30 years ago they were all on the American side of the border and now Sony's factory in Rancho Bernardo is the only one not located in TJ. Mostly it's now American engineers and mangers with Mexican workers.

Don't forget the Koreans and Japanese. Samsung, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi and many others have a huge presence here, not just for TV's but for other consumer electronics and component assembly as well. Belkin, the computer cables and connectors and miscellaneous gewgaws company, has a large plant here halfway between the Rio zone (more or less downtown) and the airport out on Mesa de Otay.

	27-08-2003 04:05									#55
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As I recall the city of San Diego tried to lure companies to set up factories in Otey Mesa and it worked. The only thing is they set up on the Mexican side of the Mesa and not the American side.

Still most of the management jobs end up in San Diego as does most of the engineering, banking, accounting, and what not.

	27-08-2003 04:14									#56
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Actually, there's a fair amount of stuff over in Otay Mesa, but it's more commerce related than heavy manufacturing. As of 2000, when I was doing some work on projects there, the bare dirt graded pad cost was around $8.00 per square foot, which is a fairly steep amount for industrially zoned property with limited utility access, off the beaten path for workers and support services, and a state prison (Donovan), long-term county jail facility (Bailey), and a bunch of junkyards for your area neighbors.

	27-08-2003 18:12									#57
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The basic argument of the protestors is not anti-globalisation, it is more like "no globalisation without representation". For some reason they continually get misrepresented in the press.

In other words they are opposed to entities like the IMF and WTO that make economic decisions without any real democratic accountability. What's so weird about that? Only the right wing loons who want to destroy all government would think that's a bad thing.