26-08-2003 20:50									#1
	Turn 137, 170 AD Increase the size of your Attachments

* General Info
- 871 gold, +174 (at start of turn)

* Military
-

* Economy

I'm using *** to mark moves where I note plans for the future. That way if I miss a turn, whoever's playing can check back more easily. (Sorry about missing last one.)

- ***Move the Arashi laborer on the irrigated plains to an irrigated desert. Next turn, the workers in the area can be shuffled to start Arashi producing four-turn knights.
- Move a Whirlwind laborer from WW9-9 to the irrigated plains.
- Monsoon laborer from the mountain takes over that spot.
- ***Move Hurricane laborers from the non-iron mountain and a fur to coast tiles. We'll do that for two turns, and then move them back for two turns, to get a four-turn knight (with a net break-even in food).
- Move Sandstorm's mountain laborer to the vacated fur.

I'll leave the workers up to whoever plays the turn, but go ahead and start one chopping the forest near Dissidentville.


* Diplomacy
- RP offers WM. Accepted.

* Additional info
-

Last edited by nbarclay on 27-08-2003 at 15:29

	26-08-2003 22:56									#2
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Could you forward to me, Shiber?

I won't be around again for about 6 hours. Maybe a little more.

	26-08-2003 23:10									#3
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Of course.
Thanks for reminding me. I'll forward to everyone on my list (btw, if you don't want to get the saves all the time, please say so).
Vel, I don't have your address.

	26-08-2003 23:13									#4
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What plan are we following? Are we cutting the iron? If so, when?

-Arrian

	26-08-2003 23:24									#5
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I would like to see the results of a discussion on that iron point, Arrian. I am away from my Civ3 computer for the rest of the afternoon.

I would imagine it will take one or two turns to organise it. Can we cut a mountain with a WC and then move the WC off the mountain?

	26-08-2003 23:52									#6
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	27-08-2003 00:17									#7
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quote: Can we cut a mountain with a WC and then move the WC off the mountain?

Yeah, AFAIK, you can.

The key is having a number of workers ready to start re-roading.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, right. No need to pillage a mountain. We can cut a grassland road. Silly me. Then we just need 2 workers on standby on that tile, and can reconnect whenever we please. Duh.

2nd EDIT: if we have 2 workers to insta-road, timing isn't much of an issue. We complete a bunch of builds, rebuild the road, upgrade, and cut again? Mmmm.

IIRC, the plan was to send iron to RP and cut the other (up north), so that we don't have to deprive Hurricane of its iron mine. So, do we have workers over by Inchoff?

Next, we will need to compile another listing of each city's shield count, +shields/turn, and current build projects. Then we can plan this out properly.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 00:21									#8
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Until we sort out whether or not we're doing the iron cut, I assume we're following your plan from the other thread?

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 00:29									#9
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Regarding timing:

quote: 250AD might be a good time to do it, since most of our cities, particularly the big ones will be completing, or near to completing, their builds. Or do you guys think that's too late?

Here's the thing. Our big, productive cities, capable of punching out 2-turn horsies, 2-turn WCs/spears & 1 turn warriors, are mostly otherwise occupied for the next several turns (knights/pikes/medinfs). If we cut the iron now, they keep building what they're building, and only the low-shield/turn cities can produce the ironless upgrading units. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and if we're willing to devote 2 workers & 1 military unit of any type to this, we can cut/reconnect our iron at will (do it multiple times).

So... shall we have a tentative look at cutting our iron next turn?

We do need to doublecheck that we can cut our iron via cutting 1 grassland road (there be jungle up there, no?)... I haven't seen a map of North Stormia in a while.

-Arrian

	27-08-2003 00:52									#10
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That sounds like a fine plan to me! The sooner we cut the iron, the faster we start getting hateful numbers of troops!

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 03:56									#11
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Indeed, get everything ready to cut it asap... also, we might need to let RP know, AFAIK they don't know we're going to cut their supply road

DeepO

	27-08-2003 04:59									#12
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I support the Iron cutting scheme- whatever gives us that power boost quicker. Then we'll just have to decide what we do with all those troops...

	27-08-2003 05:52									#13
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re Iron.

We have to cut all but one first. The one by Hurricane will continue to go to RP as part of a trade agreement. At that point we are ironless.

At a point in the future when we have some hordes to upgrade, then we cut the road on the grass, and we get the uncut iron back for our own use.

Here's the kicker. We can cut the Monsoon iron this turn, but we cannot cut the Inchoff iron until next turn (no units in range). There are WCs in range to cut the road to the Inchoff iron at the grass 3 of WoC, just barely.

	27-08-2003 05:53									#14
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btw...

GoW is in a state of lacking Iron.

We are not the only ones doing this. Their doing it gives us no choice but to follow suit, IMO.

	27-08-2003 06:04									#15
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Huh?

	27-08-2003 06:33									#16
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GoW is doing the same thing. ND cut them off from iron.

If anyone had any qualms about cutting our own iron, they should be laid to rest.

	27-08-2003 06:43									#17
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I would like to give back Toledo this turn, as well as pillage two of those road tiles to it's NE. That will require moving a pike adjacent to that ND mi, unforted, but our mi is right behind it.

	27-08-2003 06:47									#18
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5 pike an 5 mi can load on the boats this turn. That leaves 1 vet galley emplty to act as an escort.

We can land on the near side of V next turn, as well as pushing 8 knights to V 8 8.

That should give GoW some doubts.

	27-08-2003 08:07									#19
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Sounds like everything is coming along about as planned!

-=Vel=-

	27-08-2003 08:20									#20
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I will be delayed a short bit... please feel free to discuss.

	27-08-2003 08:25									#21
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Definitely cut the iron this turn.
Not only because GoW is doing it, but IMHO also because this allows us to use only the low-production towns for cheap upgradable troops, while the cities that can build expensive troops all by themselves continue to do so.

	27-08-2003 13:00									#22
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Ah, I thought so... it makes a lot of sense of GoW to do this. My guess is that they will take turns with ND: 5 turns iron for ND, 5 turns for GoW or something like that. One thing in our advantage is that they went full speed on invention, so they have less gold to upgrade. However, it is very likely that they are going for invention to be able to build Leo's asap...

nye, do you mean pillaging the roads which were meant to go from Toledo to that sacked city? It would be a good idea to pillage those... the ones next to Toledo itself should of course stay there.

As to the invasion of Valencia: go ahead. 5p, 5mi and 8 knights sounds like a nice force to begin with. Now let's hope that that will be enough to draw forces away from Pamplona. Any ideas on reinforcing that area, btw?

DeepO

	27-08-2003 15:20									#23
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GoW and ND don't even need to pillage any roads. ND can declare war and send peace accepted and no one would notice, since they play one after the other.
So, they'll be building warriors in their GA and upgrading them with Leonardo's Workshop. This should give us a hard time, guaranteed. We'll have to do our best to maximize our efficiency, as well as hope for a victorious elite and a leader which we can use on Leo's... though we might want an army and the Heroic Epic, but then again there aren't any other cool wonders that we can build in the near future and we can use the next leader for an army... but that's a discussion for another thread.

	27-08-2003 16:05									#24
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warriors? not likely.. horses yes. Oh, and by declaring war, they would be disrupting their lux supplies too much, my guess is that they will pillage. At least, that's how I would do it, but we should take into account that most likely those teams do not have the abundance of workers we have.

I'm curious on Leo's: they can't build it instantly from their capital, as the GL is only 400 shields, Leo's is 600. Would they have another prebuild going? Otherwise, we should invade them before they have a chance of completing Leo's (we should be able to calculate how fast they can get the last 200 shields, if he who plays the turn has a precise estimate when GoW gets invention, and starts Leo). We might be able to do this: if it takes them 10 turns, and we only need 7 to invade with 50 units, we could face loads of cheap, unupgraded units. But it is a timebomb: if we would run a bit late, we would get a whole shitload of riders running over us.

DeepO

	27-08-2003 17:48									#25
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Speeding our invasion to GoW: definitely, but perhaps its ND and not them who are prebuilding? We definitely have to seek out and seize the prebuild town before completion, and if not, take over that city ASAP.

About the 8 knights- I don't know, we don't really need those, and they could recieve some nasty bruise from 3-movers, who could probably attack and disappear- we should stick to the ground pounders, and move our knights either covered, or on hills, at least while we're dealing with riders attacking and not defending (as will be when we attack S).

	27-08-2003 17:56									#26
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zeit, the way I see it is that the knights are needed for both mop-up duty, and by letting GoW believe they have a big force they need to counter in Valencia. After all, this remains a kind of deception for our invasion up North, but a deception without any force behind it won't work...

Of course, we need to be careful in how we use those knights, but we've got enough pike cover which we can use if we take it slowly.

DeepO

	27-08-2003 19:31									#27
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Yeah, we need to hit them in the north, soon. Once they get leo's... yikes

	27-08-2003 19:32									#28
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note: as long as GoW builds leo in their capital, they can't do something wonky like gifting the leo city to ND so they would have the cheapo upgrades as well.

.....wonder if they would try that?

	27-08-2003 20:27									#29
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asleep, that would be a clear exploit... if we would see that, it would probably not take much to stop it, or to get Lego on our side...

DeepO

	27-08-2003 22:26									#30
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turn orders: we should also start moving workers to the tiles we're going to pillage. We don't need roads, but mines on those iron sources sure would be handy.

Is there any plan yet on what we're going to build as upgradeable units? Oh, and can we upgrade a couple of WCs before we pillage our iron? We seem to have an abundance of gold for the moment, but let's keep a certain reserve in case we or RP has some emergency. 200 gold should go a long way.

Are there any other things which still need to be decided before nye can play the turn? galley movement? I'm counting a minimum of 6 turns before our galleys can arrive North to invade GoW. 7 if we need to wait on the Valencia ones. Would that make a good time for an invasion, 8 turns from now? We should be able to get a sizeable force ready by then, but I'm not sure if they all can reach up North in time. For that purpose, wherever possible, I propose to make the slowmovers as Northly as possible, reserving the South for horses / WCs.

DeepO