27-08-2003 22:49									#1
	Is WLTLD too powerful with 2xproduction? Support Apolyton

Almost all my MP games have been played with standard production and movement. Recently I've played a couple of 2xproduction games against the AI, heading for early republic. The WLTCD seems unbiased with double production IMHO, hence my question.

Does 2xproduction render WLTLD too powerful in your opinion?

Carolus

	27-08-2003 22:59									#2
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If you have HG, I MIGHT agree. But otherwise no. Playing deity, it takes some infrastructure improvements to properly celebrate across your empire. (trade routes, markets, etc) Most of the time you're watching for even/odd pop counts for when you can celebrate on the evens. But even that only goes so far. In the long run, pyramids and food can spur growth similarly. But celebrating is faster in the short term.

	27-08-2003 23:34									#3
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seeing as Rah often gets HG, yes its easier for him to celebrate he rarely has to do it the old fashioned way

	27-08-2003 23:45									#4
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He gets HG no more often than I do... And I have no problems celebrating without it. However, I usually start a little later to make sure I have the infrastructure in place to really take advantage of it.

Since everybody in a game can take advantage of WLYD's, it's not really all that powerful. One could argue (as many do) that HG is too powerful in any Deity game... but WLYD's remain the same for everybody.

	27-08-2003 23:59									#5
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Yeah, If you're in a game with BERZ, you ain't getting it unless he gets off to a slow start or you are willing to sacrifice some early growth.

	28-08-2003 00:03									#6
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HEHE...just teasing lads, and yes, with berz in the game if youdont start it as soon as you build your capital, your not getting it

	28-08-2003 04:52									#7
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Oh goody - another opportunity to say x2 sucks.

	28-08-2003 05:38									#8
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loosely translates to......."I get my ass kicked every time I play 2x prod, so it must suck since I can't handle it".

	28-08-2003 06:07									#9
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no no Rah you got it wrong, Horse just sucks because hes not used to fighting before modern times

	28-08-2003 06:15									#10
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I stand corrected.

	28-08-2003 11:18									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Oh goody - another opportunity to say x2 sucks.

Well, eh, no. I'm seriously (you know, that special kind of Nordic seriousness ) interested in the topic.

Carolus

	28-08-2003 11:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by rah loosely translates to......."I get my ass kicked every time I play 2x prod, so it must suck since I can't handle it".

Same reply as given to AH.

Carolus

	28-08-2003 12:04									#13
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Doesnt realy matter when playing MP, but against AI the game becomes ridiculously easy.

	28-08-2003 12:19									#14
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Once you really understand the game... playing against the AI is just too easy no matter what you do. People have won staying in Dep... One City... not being allowed to build a city.... you name it... the AI is just easy to beat no matter how you handicap yourself

	28-08-2003 13:33									#15
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really??

	28-08-2003 16:50									#16
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Wlt*d is too powerful against the AI no matter what the production settings. That has always been the case, right through to SMAC where the last implementation in the form of pop booms took place.

I'm not seeing many posts comparing 2x and 1x here. My take would be that sure, 2x makes republic easier, but the bloodthirsty opponent next to you can get a big army easier.

The 2 settings that would be most common with 2x prod are 2x2x King (where its not just 2x prod making rep so desirable) and 2x1x Deity, like Rah's group, who play small world's so taking advantage of wlt*d without enough defence would probably be punished.

	28-08-2003 20:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike The 2 settings that would be most common with 2x prod are 2x2x King (where its not just 2x prod making rep so desirable)

2x movement doesnt make rep more desirable as the guy in mon next to your civ can attack with a large amount of 2x cats.

I'd say 1x movement is always better for rep.

	28-08-2003 20:36									#18
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Well it depends. The counterexample I was using was 2x1x Deity on small worlds, where there are many tactical threats as well.

But at any rate we agree. 2x prod makes republic easier, but in both 2x2x King and 2x1x Deity small worlds there are offsetting tactical threats which act as mitigating factors.

Hence, I (and Atawa I think) don't think wtl*d is any more powerful in 2x than 1x.

	28-08-2003 20:46									#19
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True, 2x tradearrows makes all the difference.

But the nice thing about 2x1x is that while you enjoy the benifits of 2x production you dont realy have to worry about attacks as you'll see your attackers comming and not have some fleet comming in that destroys city's 4 tiles inland.

Oh and its atawa.

	28-08-2003 20:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by atawa Oh and its atawa.

Didn't realise there was a difference.

	28-08-2003 20:54									#21
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As a member of PATUOCIN I can say there is

	28-08-2003 20:56									#22
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What?

	28-08-2003 20:58									#23
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PATUOCIN

	28-08-2003 21:03									#24
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Which is?

	29-08-2003 17:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by atawa True, 2x tradearrows makes all the difference. But the nice thing about 2x1x is that while you enjoy the benifits of 2x production you dont realy have to worry about attacks as you'll see your attackers comming and not have some fleet comming in that destroys city's 4 tiles inland.

Both are true. But sometimes seeing it coming doesn't help.

	29-08-2003 18:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rah Both are true. But sometimes seeing it coming doesn't help.

so true, whether its 4 mp crooks.....or single move cats on a river, it makes no difference.....

sometimes a city is just TOAST!

	29-08-2003 18:45									#27
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But it can be freaky watching the elephants coming out of nowhere on the river system to trash a city.

	29-08-2003 19:10									#28
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Nothing worse than watching cats off load, and attack on the same turn...

	29-08-2003 19:51									#29
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Yes, that would be the strangest.

	29-08-2003 20:31									#30
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Or the ability for mounted units to off load, and strike an inland city