28-08-2003 09:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by E_T From the point that we decided to send the 2 sword against the GCA Iron, I have been making my plans that we would be attacking and generating our GA on turns 117 and 118 (respectfully). I have hear a few things about delaying this war, But all of my plans currently point to those points in time. The Gang of 3 Mining crews, Yin & Yang's Mining & Silk Missions, the final clearing of the core; all of these things have been planned with those turns as targets, In my mind.

Well, the inherant problem with that is that what Workers finish what tasks when isn't the most important factor in determining when we attack.

What harm would be done by delaying things a few turns from 118?

	28-08-2003 09:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I agree Togas, to an extent, but the minimum amount of turns from the next turn would be 7 unitl we can attack. Is 3 more than that really that much to wait?

I don't think that it's a question of how much we can wait, but for how long CFC can wait. IMHO, the longer thay they are at war, the more that they can harrass GCA, especially if they are having to retreat back to their home ground, to defend against us.

Maybe we should send CFC some money, it couldn't hurt their war effort, especially if they are having to upgrade things. Have we asked them if they need any cash?

E_T

	28-08-2003 09:54									#33
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They don't need cash. They just upgraded all of their Spears to Pikes and their Swords are too far away/involved to be upgraded. The main problem is that they have too few units, and many of them are in the wrong places.

Unless CFC wins a victory over GCA's main army at Yun in 4 turns (I say 4 because if GCA bee-lines for Yun and arrives in 3 then Octavian told me that CFC will surrender since there's no way they can hold the city) then CFC won't have much impact on this war any more. They've held out for 30 turns, but their domestic planning and execution has simply been too poor to allow them to stand up to GCA, despite the fact that they now have relatively equal economies and industries.

I'll try to make that simpler. Unless GCA decides to pack up and go home there is very little chance of CFC continuing the war more than 2 or 3 turns from now.

	28-08-2003 10:00									#34
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What I don't understand is how CFC think's they will win this thing if they declare peace. They don't have a chance of anything with their limited power now. But I don't see what CFC can do to improve their chances.

	28-08-2003 10:02									#35
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They don't think they can win. That's why they want to make peace.

They don't want to lose their iron and they don't want to be subsequently steamrolled over afterwards. They're simply the bait for us, they realize this, and I must say that they've been very accomodating to that fact so far. They've known they can't beat GCA with their current army and that the longer the war goes the more they'll be pummelled. There's a point where they have to put self-preservation ahead of possible victory though.

It will be a shame when we have to axe them later, but that's how things go.

	28-08-2003 10:21									#36
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But Trip even when they make peace there is no chance they can win this game let alown this continent.

	28-08-2003 10:31									#37
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I think they realized that a while ago.

However, being destroyed in a war is also not a good way to become dominant on the continent or win the game.

If they make peace now they can have a pretty strong base to work from and start their internal improvements again instead of focusing on building units. They're in a lot better position than, say, Vox is in the PTWDG, especially with all that land to expand into.

	28-08-2003 10:50									#38
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I would not begrudge CFC one single jot for making peace. I have long feared that they would not hold out long enough for us to be comfortable in acting. The recent hope that I found in GCA not seeming to want to attack them seems to be lost.

Oh well, we will not be going to war in 2 or 3 turns, and if we did I doubt that would stay the hand of GCA to eliminate CFC's iron.

	28-08-2003 11:06									#39
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You never know what GCA may do when we declare war. If they take CFC city that was built on the Iron, then we decalre war on GCA, what will they do? Commit resources to keep CFC from regaining control of the Iron, or rush back home to take care of the big dog that is running around in their own backyard.

I too won't be pissed or otherwise at CFC's choice of declaring peace; but would GCA take it? I doubt it. Not at least until CFC is seperated from it's Iron. THEN they would have to still make sure that CFC didn't hook it back up, peace or not.

	28-08-2003 11:09									#40
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The "mini-plan" which was devised in chat is to offer them a loan (if they need it for upgrades, I guess ), and see if they can negotiate a cease-fire with GCA. If they can delay the big invasion by only one turn they'll be able to move 2 vet Pikes and 1 elite Sword into Yun, basically making it impenetrable for at least one turn. Plus, if they drag out the negotiations it may give us enough time to hit them before CFC makes peace (though that's unlikely).

I will bring up these issues with Octavian in chat tomorrow.

Whatever happens, we should not assume that the GCA forces on the CFC front (especially the Horses) will be tied up for much longer.

	28-08-2003 12:30									#41
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What we need to do:

1. Give CFC the impression that they can hold out against GCA (with any financials means or without);
   
2. Give GCA the impression that they can beat CFC;
   
3. As a result, no peace between GCA and CFC;
   
4. As a result, have the GCA Main Army go West instead of East;
   
5. As a result, have the CFC city try to hold out against this Army;
   
6. Have CFC send us updates on their situation.
   

	28-08-2003 19:45									#42
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Granted, If CFC and GCA were to have peace now, they (GCA) would more than likely send most of their Army back towards home. The longer that we can keep them away from home, the longer that we can likely prepair.

But as it is looking like CFC won't be able to hold out much longer, it would be prudent to make our plans for turn 117 (7 turn plan). If CFC turns out to be lucky and are able to hold out a bit longer, then we can extend the start of the war until turn 120 (10 turn plan).

But no matter what, we should be acting, at this point in time, as if we are going to war in 7 turns.

MoI E_T

	28-08-2003 19:49									#43
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Oh, what if GCA desides to take out CFC at the same time that we are taking out their main center? Then we will still have GCA but where CFC is currently located.

THAT would be a nightmare...

E_T

	28-08-2003 21:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Oh, what if GCA desides to take out CFC at the same time that we are taking out their main center? Then we will still have GCA but where CFC is currently located. THAT would be a nightmare...

No, it wouldn't. We would still have a decent (productive) homeland. We would still have a bunch of Workers - they would have slaves (ehm... foreign employees) only. They would have ruins, crippeled roads, destroyed irrigation, etc. etc.
They would also have only half of their army left.

In other words: let's drive 'em out.

	29-08-2003 02:17									#45
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GCA cannot move into CFC digs and hope to hold out/turtle against us there. There's just no way that is possible given the current situation. We outproduce GCA by ~50% right now, that will increase to ~100% when we hit our GA. The ONLY thing that can save GCA is the RNG, and those odds would also allow me to hit the Lottery 2 times in a row!

	30-08-2003 02:15									#46
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quote: Oh, what if GCA desides to take out CFC at the same time that we are taking out their main center? Then we will still have GCA but where CFC is currently located. THAT would be a nightmare...

No, that would be ideal: CFC's land would be crap by then for GCA, and we would get the whole continent without ever having to mess with attacking CFC or risking any reputation from getting to the other continent given that in the heat of the war i doubt either of them will explore and i think we can reasonably hope the other continent doesnt discover us before we find them.

	30-08-2003 02:39									#47
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If I understand the latest thinking, isn't part of the question *when* we want GCA to start sending troops back?