28-08-2003 05:40									#1
	Attacking GCA Earlier Than Expected: Discussion Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Trip has posted a screenshot in The CFC thread that shows GCA marching on CFC's only iron source, and makes it possible that GCA will deal a killing blow on CFC which, they say, would force them to accept peace with GCA.

We need to make it clear, internally, when we plan to strike GCA. We also need to decide if there are any circumstances that would cause us to advance the attack.

Please discuss this important issue in this thread.

--Togas

	28-08-2003 05:46									#2
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I don't think this really affects anything, even if CFC does make peace. The bulk of GCA's forces are at least 9-10 turns away from BoP, and then another 3 or 4 to our front. I didn't expect GCA to keep their forces fighting CFC for very long anyways, but this just means it'll be more important to kill as many GCA units as we can.

Plus, we're still not ready... 1 Sword is still off in never-never land for another 8 turns, we only have 3 vet NMs, nothing is upgraded yet and our force is still very small... 10/3/3 has very little chance of driving a forceful hit home.

I would take my chances with continuing to build up and having to face more GCA units sooner.

Edit: That having been said, we should really determine a date for the invasion now.

Last edited by Trip on 28-08-2003 at 05:51

	28-08-2003 06:32									#3
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How about basing it upon the arrival of our two Swords that are on PoA? We should go to war on the turn they land on GCA's Iron. We can plan everything else around that, including the settler that will build the Fort 2-2 of Cuido.

	28-08-2003 07:15									#4
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I say we move, very soon. We will have 5 mercs in position by the time the PoA arrives with the swords off GCA iron.

I can see/account for 11 30su's against CFC. We have/had 22 before the MI completed. The overwhelming bulk of GCA's effective force is after CFC.

We should strike!

We are currently 6 turns to the GCA iron.

All of AGA swords (save 1) can be upgraded and in position in 5 (without ending turns in cities). In that time, we add 2 mercs, an MI, and 2 cats to our forces. That would see us with 11 mi, 3 horse, 5 mercs gong in. There is no way that GCA has more than 6 or 8 30su's deployed vs us at the moment.

	28-08-2003 07:31									#5
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We do need that Settler for the Fort though. Banana would prolly be the best to get it out after the Barracks finishes this turn. I don't see any other city with the ability to do it so soon.

	28-08-2003 07:39									#6
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That is true.

Nana should spend the first part of the war alternating between settler and horse or merc.

That allows enough time for her to get back to 7 pop before the next baby city pops out. It is what Granery cities do soo well.

	28-08-2003 07:52									#7
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I would rather have 12 MIs and 4 NMs than 11 and 5.

	28-08-2003 07:53									#8
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So, of we plan on the settler from Banana, that's 3 turns to build, plus 4 turns to get it in place and get it built. We can attack on that turn. 7 turns from now.

	28-08-2003 07:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I would rather have 12 MIs and 4 NMs than 11 and 5.

That is too light on mercs for my taste.

BTW, what is going to hold the fort on the hill during the initial turns?

	28-08-2003 08:01									#10
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I disagree with 6 turns. With only 4 more beyond that we can get up to 14 MIs and 5 NMs.

The problem with attacking sooner is that between Anarchy, building Temples and Barracks, we've gotten very few units built the last 10 turns. While GCA was building units these past 10 turns, we've been mostly preparing our cities to build units. It's highly likely GCA has built more units than us recently. It's only now we can draw upon our superior production to make more of a difference. We have roughly the same army now as we did when CDG fell...

I think 3 extra MIs and an extra NM (plus the Catapult from Possum, allowing us to finish the Granary in Lux) in 4 turns is worth the time. Going in with 11 or even 12 MIs leaves AGB horribly weak and mostly ineffective.

	28-08-2003 08:10									#11
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Actually... I am not sure that with a small number of mercs a large AGB, or any AGB other than in the hill fortress is practical...

With just 2 mercs in a stack, it would allow GCA to attack and kill or damage 2 mercs, after which time their swords could be 1v1 with MIs.

I'm not sure if that is such a good plan.

As to how strong GCA may be... next turn we should be ready to upgrade the first 4 mi's. At the start, if we are not strong we upg 1, then check to see if we are strong, then upg another if we are not, and check again... and so on. A force estimate of GCA would be very useful right about now.

	28-08-2003 08:11									#12
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I think letting Banana first produce a NM (3 turns) then the Settler (3 turns) plus the 4 turn travel/build time works better for us. That's 10 turns from the next turn.

	28-08-2003 08:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually... I am not sure that with a small number of mercs a large AGB, or any AGB other than in the hill fortress is practical... With just 2 mercs in a stack, it would allow GCA to attack and kill or damage 2 mercs, after which time their swords could be 1v1 with MIs. I'm not sure if that is such a good plan. As to how strong GCA may be... next turn we should be ready to upgrade the first 4 mi's. At the start, if we are not strong we upg 1, then check to see if we are strong, then upg another if we are not, and check again... and so on. A force estimate of GCA would be very useful right about now.

But the idea is to keep AGB out of range/sight so that they don't have a chance to get through those 2 NMs. AGA will be relatively well-protected from Swords and especially Horses with 3 NMs, but even so... the whole idea is to get them to attack AGA because it's relatively "weak." Then AGB can pop in with fresh NMs to protect AGA and the offensive units (hopefully 6+ MIs plus Horses) can move in from behind and sweep the GCA army from the battlefield.

We need to kill as many of their units as we can. That was what this plan was designed for. Without an adequate AGB then it will not be able to complete it's mission, which is the most important factor in this war... eliminating GCA units.

	28-08-2003 08:21									#14
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Well, assuming GCA is still deployed as they are in 6 to 10 turns... then there will be 2 plus MIs needed for the iron hill, plus 1 or 2 for the elite sword. We go after the GCA horse with a combo of horse/mercs, I would assume.

Do we move a merc to cover the MI who advances on the iron hill?

How many mercs do we leave to hold the hill fort? Can they be regs? If some regs, how many vets?

That leaves how many to attack the gca horse/escort AGA?

How many MI's does that leave?

	28-08-2003 08:36									#15
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Well, assuming GCA is still deployed as they are in 6 to 10 turns... then there will be 2 plus MIs needed for the iron hill, plus 1 or 2 for the elite sword. We go after the GCA horse with a combo of horse/mercs, I would assume.

The first victorious MI will be in the same location as the AGB stationing point for turn 0 of the war (the Fort). Plus the MI that defeats the elite Sword will move into the AGA stationing point. So there's only 1 live MI which is split from the AGs during the initial turn.

quote: Do we move a merc to cover the MI who advances on the iron hill?

We can use the regular NM in the area to do that until Elucidium falls. Or we can leave it open for bait, if we want... If it keeps another elite GCA Sword in the area instead of fleeing for Catchopolis all the better for us.

quote: How many mercs do we leave to hold the hill fort? Can they be regs? If some regs, how many vets?

Once the front line has been cleared up there will be very little need to garrison the fort with anything. After the first turn of the invasion the regular NM can be used, since GCA will be unable to attack with anything but Horses from Zarigueya. Even a regular NM has an 80% chance of victory against a vet Horse. A backup to hold the fort behind the NM can be scraped together for a couple turns (one of the two regular Warriors?) before reinforcements from the north can help fill in the defense and/or capture Zarigueya.

quote: That leaves how many to attack the gca horse/escort AGA?

One of AGB's NMs can attack the Horse, which leaves all 3 of AGA's NMs with AGA, and the 2nd NM of AGB is free also (stationed with AGB in the Fort the first turn).

quote: How many MI's does that leave?

Assuming 1 lost to the two GCA units on the hill... 7 healthy and 1 damaged MI in AGA and 4 healthy and 1 damaged MI in AGB + Horses.

	28-08-2003 08:41									#16
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We will still be building once the war gets under way. To think that GCA will advance on us, past AGA is very unlikely. They will likely retreat. If they go after the MI on the Iron hill, then they will be sacraficing a unit to do so. If they want to go one for one with us, we win because of The Republic and our impending GA. There's no way they can keep up. Once we get GCA on the run, CFC will, if they have declared peace by then, declare war and advance on BoP fairly quickly. CFC won't want to see BoP in our hands.

	28-08-2003 08:44									#17
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Exactly BF. How many turns will it take to build a MI and NM in GA?

	28-08-2003 08:46									#18
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Which is why it's vital to make them come out and fight (the best way I can think of is the AGA and AGB scheme) instead of turtle. If they turtle then yes, we can run around capture cities, pillage improvements, and all sorts of other rubbish like that, but that requires us to spend more time building units at home and more time making the siege effective. It would be much better for them to come out and fight a decisive battle early. However, if they see an invincible stack of doom (as 25+ units would probably look like) then there's no way in hell they're going to get near that thing.

We pound them early with our superior numbers, reinforce with our superior industry and crush their units in battle and not drawn-out assaults on cities.

	28-08-2003 08:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Exactly BF. How many turns will it take to build a MI and NM in GA?

For most of the "good" cities it will be 2 turns for an NM and 3 turns for an MI.

If Banana is convered to a "super" city, then it can produce an NM every turn.

	28-08-2003 08:49									#20
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That's excellent. Do we have any plans for units while in the war? Like a new group. Or we will just see when we get there?

	28-08-2003 08:54									#21
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Unless things turn disastrously bad, an AGC will probably be formed for the final push into and beyond Catchopolis.

	28-08-2003 09:11									#22
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AGC will come into being very quickly after our GA is started. We have to set ourselves up for that to happen though. I'm hoping GCA will have a Horse near enough that a NM can get it started for us on turn 0.

	28-08-2003 09:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I think letting Banana first produce a NM (3 turns) then the Settler (3 turns) plus the 4 turn travel/build time works better for us. That's 10 turns from the next turn.

Why is it always "ten turns from now"?

My fear is that we'll want to push it back and push it back -- we may as well wait for the NAP to end at this point. Or wait for GCA to finish off CFC and stack up defenders or get contact via a foreign civ's suicide galley or Lighthouse.

The general attitude seems to be that we have all the time in the world and that the longer we build up the better our chances are, but we have to realize that we cannot control what happens with the other civs in this game, nor can we control many of the variables that can make this war go very, very wrong for us. I believe that it is in our best interest to finish off GCA before any other civs contact us or we contact them. It is also in our best interest to keep CFC alive and active on the western front. We need them to be able to attack GCA, and we also need GCA to believe that they can beat us.

Trip's idea of showing only some of our power is a good idea, because it will draw them out to fight us, but it seems to be mixed with a paradoxical abudance of caution in his desire for more and more and more time to get more troops, which is utterly in conflict with the original notion. They're not fools. They can use F3 and calculate approximate numbers and know that we're far too powerful to fight. They are smart enough to run and turtle and make this war a real pain in the ass for us.

I'm not saying we should attack with a weak force but, come on! We don't need to wait until we have absolute overkill. It just feels like we're spinning our wheels now and waiting for an event which continues to be put off for just one more of this or that or the other. :/

--Togas

	28-08-2003 09:20									#24
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I agree Togas, to an extent, but the minimum amount of turns from the next turn would be 7 unitl we can attack. Is 3 more than that really that much to wait?

	28-08-2003 09:20									#25
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The difference between previous estimates of "10 to 15 turns" and this estimate of 10 is that we'll have something tangible and usable in 10 now. We can estimate with 95% accuracy what we'll have in 10 turns, whereas before that wasn't possible due to shifting city sizes, switching WF and changing SPT values. We now have a core army in place, and we can produce around 8 units in the next 10 turns.

If we had the necessary forces now then I would say attack. But as I've mentioned previously in this thread, attacking now or in the near future will take the punch out of AGB, which was a vital part in the plan I designed. Once AGA is complete and AGB is adequate, then I have no problems with attacking. The values for each are not beyond reason either. 8 MIs for AGA and 6 for AGB plus protecting NMs is not too difficult to accomplish.

The time is approaching... if others agree with me, then that's great. The MOW suggests the invasion begins on turn 122.

	28-08-2003 09:24									#26
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Togas makes a good point. But I think that in ten turns will be the time we go to war. Possibly less. We can't wait until GCA brings back their forces.

We will be producing units fast while in our GA. We can put quite an army in AGC. If only one town was producing NM's it would be 5 units in 10 turns. So I suggest taking 3 cities and producing them.

For AGC I think we should have around 15 units. Hopefully that will only take 15 units. 8 NM's and 7 MI's. With that force we should be able to clean up the leftover forces and take Chatchopolis.

	28-08-2003 09:26									#27
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I'm waiting for BF to put up some exact numbers on what we'll have ready in what he says: "7, 10 or 11" turns. He says that the difference between 10 and 11 is an MI instead of a NM out of Banana after the Settler. However, I'd like to see how everything works out exactly before having something decided. After that we can poll over the exact turn number.

	28-08-2003 09:41									#28
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Ok, exact numbers:

7 turns: Means that we build a settler out of Banana on the next turn and send him directs to Cuido 2-2 to build a Fort, we start the war on that turn. Turn "0" would be 7 turns from the next turn.

10 turns: Means that we build a NM before the Settler in Banana. Then proceed as we would in the 7 turn scenario.

11 turns: Means we build a MI before the settler in Banana. Then proceed as we would in the 7 turn scenario.

Did you want exact numbers as to what our Nation will have built, as far as units, for each of these?

	28-08-2003 09:41									#29
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From the point that we decided to send the 2 sword against the GCA Iron, I have been making my plans that we would be attacking and generating our GA on turns 117 and 118 (respectfully). I have hear a few things about delaying this war, But all of my plans currently point to those points in time.

The Gang of 3 Mining crews, Yin & Yang's Mining & Silk Missions, the final clearing of the core; all of these things have been planned with those turns as targets, In my mind.

MoI E_T

	28-08-2003 09:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Did you want exact numbers as to what our Nation will have built, as far as units, for each of these?

Yes, especially since we have more to worry about than just Banana.