09-09-2003 11:35									#31
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ok, agreed. Is there anyone who thinks otherwise?
We have agreed (for now) on the following:

Creative
Repulsive
-Ground Combat
-Ship Defence

Next we must select our government, and there are two possibilities discussed: Dictatorship and Unification. The plusses and minuses of each are:

Dictatorship:
Plusses:
-It is cheap and we can spend the race picks for something else.
-It benefits from the morale improving technologies that we will discover anyway as a creative race.
-We will assimilate slaved races faster.

Minuses:
-The planets will suffer 20% morale penalty if they have no marine barracks until we discover the Imperium government.
-We will not benefit from the unification food and production bonusses. Instead we should go with a research oriented race.

As you all guess the weaknesses of the dictatorship are plusses for the unification and vice versa. Please post some comments what kind of government do you want and why.

	09-09-2003 15:30									#32
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Dictatorship

Those morale boosters really help out later on in the game and the bonuses at Imperium are very useful as well. Plus we can really use the picks somewhere else.

	09-09-2003 16:48									#33
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Ok, I personally like dictatorship with creative more, too.
Let us see what the others will say.

	09-09-2003 17:40									#34
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I like dictatorship. Uni's too expensive.

	09-09-2003 20:09									#35
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I have always felt that Uni does not go well with Creative. The boost in food is not very valuable to me, as you will soon plenty of food. That leaves 50% production boost. If you use those 6 picks to get the max production of +2, you would have the morale boosters all in play and as a creative race you will have them all. As a bonus, you will not have to sweat the 1 per 20 turn assimilation that Uni's get.

	10-09-2003 11:34									#36
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It is decided then - Creative Dictatorship. The next think I will ask is that everyone posts a reasonable distribution for the remaining 12 picks. We shall wait 2 days for this or until 4 races are proposed. Then everyone will get 2 votes and will vote for two of those races (probably his own and one another). Then we'll see what will happen.

Please only consider the following:
Creative Dictatorship is very strong in the late game. Now we need more early game boosters like Artifacts HW, Rich HW, Large HW.
Other bonusses that we have to pick from are +production and +research.
If someone needs larger pop then he should consider aquatic instead of subterranean because it helps more in the early game.
If anyone wants to select something else then he's free to do it but then he'll have to explain why he did it.

	10-09-2003 17:20									#37
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I thought we had already picked the other attributes.

	10-09-2003 18:38									#38
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The creative aquatic subbies who look like Darlocks from a Large Home World, but others consider repulsive, so they don't defend well in space, nor fight well on dry land (maybe the cloaks & fins get in the way, lol).

	10-09-2003 19:50									#39
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Land shark

	10-09-2003 19:59									#40
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Hm, I don't know how we could have been selected them if we didn't know if we can use 6 (with uni) or 12 (with dictatorship) picks? You can consider all of the previous polls when you make the race but it needs one final "fine tuning" ....

	10-09-2003 20:31									#41
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I guess I didn't consider the fact that others had chosen uni as government type. Sorry if it seemed like I jumped you. I stand by my original choices.

	10-09-2003 21:24									#42
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I think an attempt to make picks was done. It was premature as we did not have the most fundamental thing chosen.

Anyway I forget if we know the map size or not. If it is huge HW picks are less useful and empire wide picks are more useful. It is tough call as this race is likely to have a slow start with out HW boost.

	10-09-2003 22:35									#43
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I thought we had decided large galaxy, impossible, prewarp but I could be mistaken.

	10-09-2003 23:09									#44
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The smaller the map, the more the HW boost are worth.
I would be very tempted to use HW boost with this race in any map other than huge. I am not sure if it would pay off in a hug map or not. It would depend on your tactics. If you intend to sit and not expand or attack ealry, then they would be useful even in a huge map.

	10-09-2003 23:22									#45
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As a repulsive, we'd probably be attacking early, correct?Or at least defending early. We may have a good advantage in the prewarp creative for expansion and weapons tech, right?

	11-09-2003 10:49									#46
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hi!
I'm new here, but i've been reading you for a long time...

Well, I usually choose Tax -0.5, spying -1, and gc -10 for negative picks. I used to use creative but since a changed it to telepathic, cuz i exchange techs now, and i don't have to build those damn transports. I dislike short games and therefore i always allow the AI to explore and conquer worlds(not a world that is mine)
then when i'm bored, i conquer them with 6battleships, 4doom stars and 10titans...

My goverment is Dictatorship and i pick ind+1, and uh, i don't know what else... Maala

	11-09-2003 11:43									#47
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- Tax is not acceptable for creative race because it must build a lot of buildings and this way it will not have the money to support them.

Harry, a creative race has not advantage at the early expansion. Creative = weak before turn 100 and strong after that. BTW if you do not expand too much in a huge galaxy then the first contacts with the other races are made at that time too.

IMO the HW boosters reduce the time that is needed for the creative race to become strong.

	11-09-2003 18:36									#48
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-tax only effects pop based tax, not anything taxed from industry. It is actually fairly painless

	11-09-2003 19:26									#49
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Yeah, and it's good combo with democracy(but i hate it)

bakalov: i don't use creative, so i don't have to be fast...it's just boring if u kill your oppenents so early.

	11-09-2003 19:50									#50
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Heh, It is not the creative race that can kill all the opponents earliest. Uni Tol +1 prod can do it faster (it can do this for ~160 turns). The best result that I got for now with a creative race was 190 turns. The creative races are somewhat slow at the beginning ....

	11-09-2003 20:05									#51
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with or without +1/+2 prod?

well, anyway, I would argue gamers who play for score.

oh, in huge gal, 8players, prewarp, min/org/mid?

	11-09-2003 20:21									#52
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quote: Harry, a creative race has not advantage at the early expansion. Creative = weak before turn 100 and strong after that. BTW if you do not expand too much in a huge galaxy then the first contacts with the other races are made at that time too.

But wouldn't creative have an advantage with prewarp as far as quicker research to propulsion techs and colony types? I could be wrong, though. It happens alot.

As for the taxes, I usually don't adjust mine in game and I've never taken the minus tax pick before so I have no basis for comparison. What's the pick count for a negative tax bonus anyway?

	11-09-2003 21:14									#53
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Creative does not equal researcher. To be a researcher you will need research boost ( +R, AHW ). Their advantage in a prewarp game would be that eventually they will have more techs to make them productive and have all the defensve goodies. This means missile bases and fighter garrisons, while the non creative would have neither. They will have battle station and non creatives will not. They will have all the spy boost. All of this means if they are not attacker soon, they will be very hard to attack. You will be forced to wait for better ships that can with stand all of those defenses.

I would not take -BC, why would I? There are other picks that will not hurt me at all. Minus BC can be offset later as can any pick, but later is later. Later could be too late.
I rarely have to adjust taxes, but it can be very useful. Slap a 20 to 50% tax on the empire for a few turns to handle a short fall. It has saved my butt.

	11-09-2003 22:28									#54
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I guess I have done that but nothing over the long term with tax increases. I did get creative and research confused. I tend to think they go hand in hand anyway to get the most from either.

	11-09-2003 23:56									#55
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I think a +0.5 tax pick is very powerful in combination with creative, you can buy all those buildings instantly that you research and in case of defense have lots of money to spend.
One of the better creative races is creative, subt., LHW, +0.5 BC.
By the time you get zortrium armor you usually have between 3000 and 4000 thousand BC. You can buy at least half a BB with that or a couple of Battlestations.

	12-09-2003 01:18									#56
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How are we going to do this? There are so many choices that narrowing them down again will be troublesome. I don't remember tax picks offered last time.

	12-09-2003 12:34									#57
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That's why I suggested proposing whole races based on Creative Dictatorship and then voting for the races. There are two proposals for now and I will add mine here too:

1) Old'n'Slow's:
- Subterranean, Aquatic, Large HW

2)Harry Seldon's
- Science+2, Artifact HW, Production+1

3) Bakalov's
- Science+1, Artifact HW, Large HW, Aquatic

I suggest that we wait till Monday for more proposals and then vote for these races with 2 votes per participant and see what happens then.

	12-09-2003 17:41									#58
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Looks good. I can wait until Monday.

	13-09-2003 07:01									#59
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I definately like bakalov's choice 1). I use that one a lot.

	14-09-2003 11:32									#60
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Can you be subterranean and aquatic?