31-08-2003 12:36									#1
	al Qaida assassinates Shi'ite Ayatollah Increase Your PM Length

I'm surprised there is no thread on this yet. But it appears that al Qaida is behind the assassination of the Ayatollah Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim. Al Qaida is an organization composed of extremist Wahhabi's, enemies of Shi'ites.

I wonder what the Shi'ites will do in response?

I wonder what we will do?

"NAJAF, Iraq (AP) - Police have arrested 19 men - many of them foreigners and all with admitted links to al-Qaida - in the car bombing of the Imam Ali shrine in the holy Shiite city of Najaf, a senior Iraqi investigator told The Associated Press on Saturday.

Two Iraqis and two Saudis grabbed shortly after the Friday attack gave information leading to the arrest of the others, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. They include two Kuwaitis and six Palestinians with Jordanian passports with the remainder Iraqis and Saudis, the official said, without giving a breakdown.

Initial information shows the foreigners entered Iraq from Kuwait, Syria and Jordan, the official said, adding that they belong to the Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam."

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20.../D7T8MHHO0.html

	31-08-2003 12:45									#2
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Was this the guy GePap made a thread about?

	31-08-2003 12:47									#3
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=95762

	31-08-2003 12:57									#4
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Bebro, yeak it is the same guy. However, the massive al Qaida and Wahhabi connection is new. I haven't heard how the Shi'ites are responding to the news that their old enemy has attacked them. I can imagine the response - war - war against Saudi Arabia. Something that some of us predicted before we invaded Iraq.

	31-08-2003 13:00									#5
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I doubt that the US is going into a new war soon, since you still have to do with the consequences of the Iraq thingie.

	31-08-2003 13:43									#6
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Saudi Arabia's grace period with the USA is ending though... when Iraq becomes a reliable US gas station in about ten years or so, there will be no reason for the USA to prop up Saudi Arabia.

What are the major ideological differences between Sunni and Shiite Islam? Is it somewhat like the different branches of Christianity?

	31-08-2003 14:00									#7
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To the Shi'ites of Iraq and probably the world, this attack is as serious as the attack on the US on 9/11. Both attacks were by al Qaida. One would think that the Shi'ites would eagerly join with us in the world's war on al Qaida. But will they? How does this fit with the Iranians view, for example, that the US is the Great Satan? How can they now switch sides and join with us to battle Osama bin Laden and al Qaida?

Further, how is the Sunni Arab Media going to handle this? They have been particularly pro al Qaida. Will they now change their tune?

The next few days are going to be very interesting.

	31-08-2003 14:15									#8
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I get the feeling al-Qaeda is being used to find a scapegoat: nothing works better to rally people behind a single goal/nation/leader than a foreign enemy.

There is no doubt that Iraq is a patchwork of ethnicities, tribes, clans, religious factions, factions within factions etc.

I recently read an interesting article one week ago (in Dutch ) that the shia community in Iraq, and indeed worldwide, is not a single entity, to say the least, and there was bound to be a powerstruggle taking place, as it was allready brewing underneath the surface.


One should be very carefull not to put blame on al-Qaeda at an instant, since it may well obscure ones view on the situation.

Al-Qaeda being the culprit here sounds way to convenient. The fact that some Saudi's and /or Palestinians being arrested sounds more like Xenophobia.

	31-08-2003 14:26									#9
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Four people were caught right after the bomb blast. Two of them were ex-members of Saddam's regime and two of them were from Saudi Arabia. The two from Saudi Arabia confessed to being in Al Qaeda and spouted off a bunch of pro-OBL slogans.

Check the BBC and CNN they both are carrying this story.

	31-08-2003 14:29									#10
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"the shia community in Iraq, and indeed worldwide, is not a single entity, to say the least,"

Yes, they're as much a single entity as American Protestants are.

	31-08-2003 14:30									#11
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Heck, why do you have to include the world American? The same is true for all Protestant groups world wide. There is no reason to single out the US.

	31-08-2003 14:30									#12
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Being arrested is not the same thing as being guilty. So far, they are just suspects.

	31-08-2003 14:32									#13
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Suspects who have confessed to the crime though.

	31-08-2003 14:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Heck, why do you have to include the world American? The same is true for all Protestant groups world wide. There is no reason to single out the US.

My are we touchy. How is this a negative? I don't like centralised creeds like the catholic one.

American Portestants are extremely fractured, are they not? I don't think the same is true to this extent for say Britain, not to mention Scandinavia.

	31-08-2003 15:03									#15
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Yes, there are many different Protestant groups in the US, but places like Canada, Australia or even Germany also have alot of Protestants which are also fractured.

	31-08-2003 15:09									#16
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German protestants are mostly in the EKD, which comprises reformed, lutheran, and unified. Besides that there's a dozen or so free churches, which are quite small.

	31-08-2003 15:10									#17
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So there is actually a unified protestant church hiearchy in Germany?

Last edited by Oerdin on 31-08-2003 at 15:49

	31-08-2003 15:15									#18
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"Hierarchy" is too strong a word. It's a common institution for 24 regional protestant churches with 26 million members. Excluding roman catholic and orthodox, there are 360000 other christians, mostly protestant.

	31-08-2003 15:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I get the feeling al-Qaeda is being used to find a scapegoat: nothing works better to rally people behind a single goal/nation/leader than a foreign enemy. .... One should be very carefull not to put blame on al-Qaeda at an instant, since it may well obscure ones view on the situation. Al-Qaeda being the culprit here sounds way to convenient. The fact that some Saudi's and /or Palestinians being arrested sounds more like Xenophobia.

This post is consistent with the media's party line 'til now. This act was, according to media spin, Shi'ite on Shi'ite violence in a power struggle among Ayatollahs. However, the attack appears to have been carried out by al Qaida - this is a third in such major attacks by that group: the Jordanian embassy, UN HQ in Iraq, and now the Ali Shrine and the Ayatollah Hakim.

Will Arab media report this accurately, or will it blame the attack on "unknowns" and then blame Bush and America for lack of security? It appears, 'til now, that the anti- American party line is prevailing:

From the most recent story http://apnews.excite.com/article/20.../D7T8RMI00.html

"However, many Shiites blame the cleric's death on Saddam Hussein loyalists and the U.S.-led coalition, which they say has failed to provide adequate security in the country since the dictator's fall.

"Saddam and Bush will not humiliate us," read another banner."

	31-08-2003 15:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Hierarchy" is too strong a word.

Give me a break on the spelling man. It's 3am here.

	31-08-2003 16:09									#21
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Sure, but don't expect me to copy your spelling. (the quotation marks are there because it's about the term, not your spelling. I'm not even 100 % sure my spelling is correct.)

Edit it back, that's ridiculous.

	31-08-2003 17:06									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ned This post is consistent with the media's party line 'til now. This act was, according to media spin, Shi'ite on Shi'ite violence in a power struggle among Ayatollahs. However, the attack appears to have been carried out by al Qaida - this is a third in such major attacks by that group: the Jordanian embassy, UN HQ in Iraq, and now the Ali Shrine and the Ayatollah Hakim. Will Arab media report this accurately, or will it blame the attack on "unknowns" and then blame Bush and America for lack of security? It appears, 'til now, that the anti- American party line is prevailing: From the most recent story http://apnews.excite.com/article/20.../D7T8RMI00.html "However, many Shiites blame the cleric's death on Saddam Hussein loyalists and the U.S.-led coalition, which they say has failed to provide adequate security in the country since the dictator's fall. "Saddam and Bush will not humiliate us," read another banner."

[off topic]Good God, what an incoherent piece of writing. Jumping back and forth at will [/off topic]

To say it was an al-Queda attack, based only on information from

quote: a senior Iraqi investigator ... speaking on condition of anonymity.

is pretty bold. Who is the police anyway in Najaf? Suddenly the Iraqi police is a reliable source? How?

quote: "They are all connected to al-Qaida," the official said.

How do you establish that on such short notice?

quote: The bomb at the Imam Ali shrine - the burial place of the son-in-law of the Prophet Muhammad - was made from the same type of materials used in the Aug. 19 truck bombing at the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad, which killed 23 people, and the Jordanian Embassy vehicle bombing Aug. 7, which killed 19, the Iraqi official said. ... The FBI said the U.N. bomb was built from ordnance left over from Saddam's regime, most of it made in the Soviet Union. Many explosives were wired together, including a 500-pound Soviet-era bomb, the agency said.

Sounds to me that anyone who wants to plant a bomb somewhere in Iraq would make use of these, probably not to difficult to obtain, explosives.

The article fails to produce any evidence the Embassy and UN bombs are linked however, so the claim all three are connected is a bit premature, I would think.

	31-08-2003 21:19									#23
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If they are though, whoever does it hates the UN, hates other Arabs, and hates other Muslims. That doesn't leave one much of a support base.

	31-08-2003 21:30									#24
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Well, i was right that this was not an Iranina attempt to undermine the US and moderates in Iraq.

The million dollar question is what the Shi'ite response is, if any, becuase getting a violent response out of the Shi'ia is probably one of the expectations behind this attack. If factional fighting starts, Sunni's would have to decide whether to trust the US, which would posotion itself as a fair arbitrer, or move towards their "champions" in the old Baathits and Al qaeda. At the same time, it undermines trusts between Shi'ia and the Occupation.

Lets hop factional fighting is NOT the end result.

	01-09-2003 01:08									#25
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Well, GePap, the Iraqi's are demanding their own security force - or else.

"The attack, coupled with the repeated assaults on Americans and Iraqis here, has prompted leaders of several political parties to declare that they have lost confidence in the ability of the Americans to protect their leaders and sacred places.

Today, they began to demand that Iraqis become more involved in security. Indeed, some political leaders said they might be unable to keep their own followers from moving against their enemies, especially if the attacks continued.

"The knife is at our neck," Said Nael Musawi, a Shiite religious leader, told a group of American soldiers guarding the gate of the Coalition Provisional Authority headquarters in Baghdad, as thousands of demonstrators swirled about them. "I don't know how much longer I can control my people."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/31/i.../31IRAQ.html?th