03-09-2003 04:52									#31
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Exactly, we should be planing city, FP and Place locations for not just this side of the contenent but the whole thing. With just 3 civs, the MA techs can be quickly gotten through.

We are planning to win this game, so we need to plan of taking this whole contenant under our full control. Even if we have to completely redistribute our current core to get it as good as possible, lets explore these possibilities.

We could even try a phased Palace jump approach if we redo everything, i.e. moving to a better location for FP building, then to another loaction for further expansion and finally to the final location.

But no matter how we do it, we need to have ful plans for how we will make this contenent ours.

We have until one of the other civs get Astronomy/Navigation (if not before) we have to worry about them landing a colony force on part of our land, like the northern silks. We know that the Germans covet the luxuries that other have claim over, so I expect to see a german city spring up on our contenent within 40 turns.

E_T

	04-09-2003 17:47									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am less into perfect placement than many here, but Dom's plan looks fine to me. Thing is we would move the Palace elsewhere later on, and because of the FP's proximity to where the Palace is now the core we have now would not become horribly corrupt. Dom's plan is medium term at it's longest - before the Industrial Era we should hope to move the Palace elsewhere.

Isn't that what you guys do in your games too? Build the FP closeish to the Palace so you can actually build the damn thing and then move the Palace?

	04-09-2003 19:31									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'll post a complete response later...For now:

Call the land mass on our continent east of the chokepoints "the East", and the rest "the West" (creative, eh?).

Then: notice that the FP is central in the East. This means that wherever the Palace is eventually relocated, the East will remain our most productive area, due both to its history and reduced Corruption. The Palace could be moved somewhere West in what is now CFC's lands, which would provide two central cores in both the East and West.

Now notice also that the FP is more or less centrally located on our entire continent, which will be a good thing for when we move our Palace to foreign lands.

GCA's lands are fertile, but their location is bad for us with respect to Corruption: it's not a very central location on our continent. So I do not support any plan that moves our capital there, because it would surely need to moved almost immediately afterward. You can never expect a Great Leader, and Palace-jumping becomes more and more costly as the game progresses.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 05-09-2003 at 08:57

	05-09-2003 03:37									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Call the land mass on our continent east of the chokepoints "the East", and the rest "the West"

Please, there are already terms for them! East Asia and West Asia!

	05-09-2003 03:49									#35
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 Please, there are already terms for them! East Asia and West Asia!

Noted.


Dominae

	05-09-2003 04:16									#36
	Got spare money?

As long as our Palace and FP are not close together (for long) then I'm sure your plan can work out.

How do you measure where is the best place to build either? Do you just eyeball it? A FP in NorthEast Asia and a Palace in SouthWest Asia(?) would allow for maximum productivity.

	05-09-2003 04:38									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

BF, the idea is to place the FP where 1) it will be of maximum benefit *wherever* the Palace is (including considering productivity in the original core), and 2) where it can be built in a reasonable timeframe.

This allows the use of the Palace, RNG and GL godz willing, to be used as a proactive tool.

If I remember, Catt and nbarclay did the most to develop this technique in the Strat forum, and most everybody adopted it.

	05-09-2003 04:47									#38
	Support Apolyton

BTW, in reviewing civman2000's version of our map, I have to say that I am intrigued by the shape of our continent.

Dominae's FP placement is spot on... East Asia becomes a production powerhouse (thank god we are industrious), and West Asia becomes reasonably productive (especially if we can plant a Palace there for a while).

From a military perspective, the Great Sea and controlling a northern canal city lend tremendous naval flexibility.

Note: We will, of course, want to barricade the southern entrance to the Great Sea sooner rather than later, thus allowing empty cities throughout the interior.

	05-09-2003 09:14									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by BigFree How do you measure where is the best place to build either? Do you just eyeball it?

Essentially, yes.

Forget for the moment the new development in the area of Rank Corruption (and the Palace exploit that derives from it).

Then you ideally want your FP and Palace to be very far from one another. Imagine two big colored circles centered on each of their respective cities. Then you want these circles to: 1) cover as much land mass at a low radius (distance from either center) as possible, and 2) only overlap at high radii. So the more or less ideal placements for the FP and the Palace on our continent is one slighly East of the FP location I'm proposing, and one somewhere in the CFC lands. It is, of course, difficult to set this up "perfectly" in any given game.

So you can see why I do not like the idea of putting one of the two in the GCA lands: it's not exactly central on our continent. The other problem is getting it built there in the first place.

With the Rank Corruption exploit, it turns out to be better to have a large cluster of cities near the FP, and the Palace as far from this cluster as possible. Due to some weirdness in the Corruption formula, this results in very low (Rank 1) Corruption for each and every city in the cluster. But without a Great Leader (and a sufficiently distance island), I'm not sure we're going to get a chance to use this exploit. Even if we could, there would be the problem of having created a big juicy bullseye (the isolated Palace) for all our enemies to shoot at.


Dominae

	05-09-2003 09:50									#40
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My humble opinion: build the FP in LuxInvicta (or somewhere close like that) and jump the Palace to the conquered lands (as west as possible), which will presumably have a less dense build pattern. That way we get to keep the heavy ICS in our current core without the corruption penalties associated with it.

The jump is no big deal. Just boost the new capital to size 12 with native workers, while keeping all other cities relatively small. Each native population counts as much as three neighboring cities for the jump.

	05-09-2003 10:00									#41
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by alexman My humble opinion: build the FP in LuxInvicta (or somewhere close like that) and jump the Palace to the conquered lands (as west as possible), which will presumably have a less dense build pattern. That way we get to keep the heavy ICS in our current core without the corruption penalties associated with it.

The problems I see with this (basically BigFree's proposal) are:

1. We do not have a real timeline as to when we're going to actually have the opportunity to settle CFC's lands. We may be neighbors with them for quite some time.

2. We would not benefit short-term from having two (admittedly close) cores. Our success depends heavily on beating GCA and CFC, and I think that's going to require a little more than what we currently have.

3. If ever we jump off-island (one can dream!), our FP will be "badly" placed with respect to the geography of our landmass.


...but somehow, given that you are after all the Corruption Nazi, I feel compelled to agree with whatever you recommend...


Dominae

	05-09-2003 10:44									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have to agree that the time to a Palace jump could be a very long while indeed.

Furthermore, with Lux, and perhaps Poly being temporary cities from that POV, I think we are better to build out a little farther than Lux. Karina maybe... Lux? Look at how much else is sacrificed.

Last edited by notyoueither on 05-09-2003 at 11:53

	05-09-2003 11:05									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hmm, Karina might work just as well except that Possumopolis, Cuido and Lux would have to be moved.

I guess we can wait to see what the war will bring us. That may dictate to us what we can do more than what we are planning as would be our best move.

And I agree about the jump, it's not that hard once you know the formula. You do waste a bit of time/shields on workers and whatnot, but you end up getting all those back once you have two operating cores.

I liked what I read about the RCP concept; but should it be labled as an exploit and thus not honorable to use in this game? I don't think it is an exploit; only a quirk of the corruption calculator in the game. It could possibly even be meant to be that way and we are only now finding out. It's not like Firaxis has released any of the information we constantly seek out.

	05-09-2003 21:24									#44
	Put an end to popups!

One thing that we will need to do, When we get around to moving the palace, is to have courthouses built (or almost built) in our current core.

Another reason to have this planned as much in advance.

E_T