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Dominae
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We need to start thinking about our Forbidden Palace now. Why? Because in all likelihood we're going to be building it the hard way (without a Great Leader), and that's going to take a long time.
Below is a screenshot of my proposal for FP placement and city placement around it (largely in what used to be CDG's lands).
Edit: the blue dot East of the FP should be one tile South. Thanks OPD!
The central red dot is the proposed location for the FP (the other red dot is the location of our Palace).
I placed the FP with numerous considerations in mind. First, it is central on our side of the land mass (East of the chokepoints), which will be important down the road when we relocated our Palace. Second, the city-site is sweet: River-adjacent, many Grassland tiles once the Jungle comes down (one with a Dyes), 5 Hills tiles including one with Gold and one with Iron...it's hard to ask for more. Third, the location is far enough from our Palace in Apolyton that we'll benefit from a somewhat two core empire for an important chunk of the game. Fourth and finally, we can settle it almost immediately; there is only the threat of GCA and and the presence of Cuido de Alcohol to take care of.
The colored dots surrounding the FP are city placements. Each color represents a "ring" of equal-distance Corruption (check out the RCP thread over at CFC for a thorough explanation of this strat). Each blue city is at distance 4 or 4.5; each yellow city is at distance 7 or 7.5. Fractions are irrelevant. Each city of particular color will suffer the same distance Corruption as any other city of the same color. This is a good thing.
As much as possible in creating this placement, I've tried to keep existing cities in place. However, two cities will need to be disbanded: Cuido de Alcohol (in order to build the FP in the right spot), and Incredible Dancing Girl (currently GCA-owned).
Please comment on this plan, and propose your own placement scheme if you have one. RCP is actually quite flexible, and I doubt I've explored all the possibilities for this map.
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 01-09-2003 at 00:23
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Dominae
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I must have missed your post the first time around...
Your graphic sure is cooler than mine, Master Zen, but I still like my plan better. I suspect you did not know about the "fractions are irrelevant" rule when you drew it up.
Some specific differences: 1) the entire ex-CDG West coast is unclaimed by any coastal city in your plan, 2) I believe I'm packing more cities into my placement that you are in yours.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
Fractions are irrelevant? Please explain, I honestly missed that part... I thought spaces N,W,S,E were valued at 1.5 and NW,NE,SW,SE were valued at 1. |
That's how you count the value of a tile. But once the value is counted, the Corruption formula rounds down fractions. So, for example. 7.5 is equivalent to 7. You still have to count by 1.5 for N, S, E and W directions, though, as every two tiles in those directions does end up counting as 3 "distance points" (1.5+1.5=3.0).
Dominae
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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Ok, here's an attempt to get the most out of a FP and a Palace. We build the FP in Lux, then jump our Palace down South.
The numbers stand for how many tiles away from the Palace or FP each city is.
Using the standard corruption formula on can determine the corrution for each of our cities.
I'm trying to come up with a way to properly evaluate city/Palace/FP placement. This may be the way:
On the map, I placed 44 cities. The ones in blue are questions for now. I then counted how many tiles total those cities away from either the Palace or the FP. I added them up and counted 301. If I divide them I get an average distance of 6.84 from either the Palace or the FP for all cities. The average distance is a factor, but also a factor to consider is how many cities are counted in the average.
Say a person only lined out 15 cities, then of course, the average distance for all those cities is going to be less than one with 40 cities.
Another factor is actual city placement; How well spaced are the cites? How many tiles overlap preventing growth for the future? How many cities do you have that are close to the core that are near river's and bonus tiles? These cities experience less corruption and thus should get more consideration for those type of tiles. Cities that have a higher corruption can't properly utilize river and bonus tiles as well as a less corrupt city.
To get a proper feel for what that means one must do something with that number; what to do with it is the question.
So, if our average distance is 6.84; that makes our distance factor equal to ((6.84 X 3.6) / 100 (Standard Map)) X 2/3 (Republic) X .85 (Cities connected). Which is .1395 or 13.95% corruption across those cities on average BEFORE adding in corruption/waste due to number of cities. I've looked at that formula for a bit, but I guess I'm too tired right now to figure out what I'm supposed to do with it. 
So, I will continue without it. 
My main point is that the more cities we have nearer to a Palace or a FP is good, but at the same time you must also considering having a few cities that are allowed to experience 60-70% corruption that are inbetween the FP and the Palace; otherwise you waste some of the effects of both structures. If the effects overlap too mush you lose out on some of the benefits. I've always tried to keep my Palace and FP at 20% of the maps tiles, in one direction, apart. On a standard map, that is 20 tiles.
The way I calculated the worth of the cities and their values as a whole to our Civ is something new. If someone has a better way of doing it, please let me know. I'm not totally convinced my way has a lot of value or not.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
Ok, here's an attempt to get the most out of a FP and a Palace. We build the FP in Lux, then jump our Palace down South.
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Hm, here we go in point-form (hooray!):
1. Lux is a temporary city. It must remain this way because the city-spacing is currently too tight around that area to promote large and productive cities later on in the game. We could conceivably disband Karina instead of Lux, but then some tiles would not be used (while the tiles around Lux, Apolyton and Bananatopia would be highly contested).
2. Jumping the Palace is no small feat. I'm sure DaveMcW has almost/exactly the right formula for this maneuver, and what it depends on the most is pop. In short, there needs to be more pop around the "target" city that any other city in the empire. But there is certainly more pop density around our current core than down South (especially considering the loose city-spacing you've proposed over there). So the Palace jump would probably miss, unless we spent a lot of pop resources to make it work, not to mention the cost of disbanding Apolyton. This would clearly be awkward and inefficient.
3. With the Palace jump maneuver more or less out of the picture, we have two options for relocating the Palace: we can either hard-build it, or rush it with a Great Leader. We cannot expect a Great Leader anytime soon. And, we cannot reasonably build the Palace with the number of cities we have now.
4. Our other option therefore is to build the Forbidden Palace. Hard-building it takes a long time, and the only way to cut this down is to place it close to the Palace to ensure a steady Shield per turn rate. Of course, placing it too close to the Palace would result in two close cores, which is bad as you pointed out (cores should be as far as possible). So the trick is balancing between building the FP in a reasonable amount of time, and not putting it too close the the capital.
5. The spot that I suggested balances these two factors adequately, I think. The upside is that the FP location is pretty darn good, both in terms of tiles around it and centrality relative to our portion of the continent. Another plus is that the old core remains more or less intact for the most important parts of the game. Remember we're not going for UP here, we need to be strong at every stage of the game.
6. RCP does not really factor into this discussion. It just so happens that my proposed location for the FP is conducive to a nice RCP placement in the ex-CDG lands. By putting the FP close to Apolyton, we would throw all the RCP theory out the window, which is wasteful. We already did not use RCP around our core (because we did not know about it), and if you're counting this will come back to haunt us somewhere down the line.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
1. The site already has fresh water, and so can grow past 6 without an aquaduct.
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In the spot that I'm proposing: check!
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2. The site has plenty of forests that can be choped down for speeding up the shield waste reducing prior builds to a FP. (Court House, Temple, Catherdrial, Market Place.)
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Not sure where we're going to find such a location. There's the patch of Forest on the southwestern tip of the eastern peninsula, but that's not really a good location for the FP. All other Forest is close to either CFC and/or GCA, which means it's going to be gone by the time we reach it.
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3. Capturing a city with those imporvements already and building the FP on that site is almost assurely faster than starting from scratch.
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I doubt we're going to capture a city with anything more than a Temple for this purpose.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
That is some news about rank corruption!!
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Thankfully we have a bit of time to figure out how to use (exploit!) this new information.
Dominae
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Hm, here we go in point-form (hooray!):
1. Lux is a temporary city. It must remain this way because the city-spacing is currently too tight around that area to promote large and productive cities later on in the game. We could conceivably disband Karina instead of Lux, but then some tiles would not be used (while the tiles around Lux, Apolyton and Bananatopia would be highly contested).
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Lux was planned as a temp city, yes, but we can change those plans. I would actually want to eventually disband both Karina and Mingapulco. There would be no wasted tiles in the inner core if we did so; that is, there would be no unused tiles. Bananatopia, Lux, Possumopolis and Cuido, river cities that have very low corruption, would have a lot of tiles to work for themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
2. Jumping the Palace is no small feat. I'm sure DaveMcW has almost/exactly the right formula for this maneuver, and what it depends on the most is pop. In short, there needs to be more pop around the "target" city that any other city in the empire. But there is certainly more pop density around our current core than down South (especially considering the loose city-spacing you've proposed over there). So the Palace jump would probably miss, unless we spent a lot of pop resources to make it work, not to mention the cost of disbanding Apolyton. This would clearly be awkward and inefficient.
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Yes, jumping the Palace is not completely fun. I would much rather build the FP and then rush the Palace with a GL for two reasons. One being that you end up with two cores eaxactly where you want them with proper spacing. Two, if we build(rush) the Palace rather than jump it, you can keep your original capital intact. But jumping it is not impossible. It involes many workers being transplanted to the target city and possibly converting population in other cities to workers as a temp means to reduce population before adding them back in when the jump is complete. Of course such a move would have to be SIMed out. I SIMed the Palace jump for RP, so I know what to do. 
quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
3. With the Palace jump maneuver more or less out of the picture, we have two options for relocating the Palace: we can either hard-build it, or rush it with a Great Leader. We cannot expect a Great Leader anytime soon. And, we cannot reasonably build the Palace with the number of cities we have now.
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Planning for a GL is not quite wise, but with our war comming up, I believe we have a good chance at it. We'd need to fight ~8-9 elite battles and win those battles to give ourselves a 50% chance at recieving one. If we had to build a Palaca we'd be in trouble; our landmass and current Capitol location is not condusive for it. If we had more room to expand North or even better, NorthWest, then we could simultaneously build a FP in the SouthEast and a Palace in the NorthWest, placing our current Capitol in the middle of the two.
quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
4. Our other option therefore is to build the Forbidden Palace. Hard-building it takes a long time, and the only way to cut this down is to place it close to the Palace to ensure a steady Shield per turn rate. Of course, placing it too close to the Palace would result in two close cores, which is bad as you pointed out (cores should be as far as possible). So the trick is balancing between building the FP in a reasonable amount of time, and not putting it too close the the capital.
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Yes, that's the trick. But I lean towards not putting it too close rather than getting it done sooner.
quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
5. The spot that I suggested balances these two factors adequately, I think. The upside is that the FP location is pretty darn good, both in terms of tiles around it and centrality relative to our portion of the continent. Another plus is that the old core remains more or less intact for the most important parts of the game. Remember we're not going for UP here, we need to be strong at every stage of the game.
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Yes, your FP spot is quite good if you did not look up to see the Palace only 9 tiles away! 
Getting that number nearer 20 will be much better for us in the long run. I'd even compromise at the spacing to be around 14 tiles, one more ring of cities inbetween.
quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
6. RCP does not really factor into this discussion. It just so happens that my proposed location for the FP is conducive to a nice RCP placement in the ex-CDG lands. By putting the FP close to Apolyton, we would throw all the RCP theory out the window, which is wasteful. We already did not use RCP around our core (because we did not know about it), and if you're counting this will come back to haunt us somewhere down the line.
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I'm trying not to be wasteful by promoting more less corrupt cities than would your proposal. How many cities do you have planned that fall within 7 tiles (corruption factor wise) of either the FP or the Palace? I have 26, including the Palace and FP cities.
I have another 11 that are with in 10 tiles, for a corruption distance factor of less than 18% for those cities.
EDIT: {qoute} thingies not in right spots.
Last edited by BigFree on 04-09-2003 at 11:54
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01-09-2003 00:02
), but it's a sound strategy and very workable with all the cities that are already built in that area. I say go for it. 
)
great plan.
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