01-09-2003 19:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I had an Australia Zin last week which was really quite good. We drink alot of Zin here in California so that's high praise.

I Zinfandel. Probably my favourite grape. Weird for someone who likes Frenchies, but nothing else has that blackberry flavour I like. The day someone Bordeaux vinyard starts making Zinfandel I will be a happy person

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'll agree there. I have yet to fall in love with any Italian veritals. Chianti and Sangiovese are both sort of blah in my opinion but somebody most like them. Pinot Grigio (an Italian white) can be good though.

I can't stand Pinot Grigio, I find it to dry to be gluggable and not interesting enough to be like a Sauvignon. Chianti isn't my fav either, but some Chianti (especially Classico) and southern Reds are nice IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Newbies will want to stick with new world wines because they will come ready to drink or will have to be aged for only a few years, where as, most old world wines most be aged for several years before they become drinkable. Don't waste money buying and celloring wines. First figure out what you like and then worry about celloring. Try checking out the Wine Spectator for some suggestions on which ones to buy and which ones to avoid.

Some NW ones yes, but if i'd started with Aus wines, I wouldn't be drinking as I do now. I think starting with a French country wine, something heavily Merlot or Pinot Noir would be the best. Or Chilean's which are dirt cheap and very drinkable. I'd leave Red Aus Shiraz or Cabernet though, that's an aquired taste. If it was me I'd just find a wine shop you trust and they'll all be good, so you can try different things. That's what I do usually.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Drogue: You guys must pay alot of import taxes on wines because Californian wines are dirt cheap here in the US. Well, the big names cost alot but you can get decent table wine for around $2 per bottle. Many large names will go between $8-$12 per bottle. specialty names can cost much, much more.

We do About £3 per bottle ($5).

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Stick with New World wines if you are a newbie. I learned drinking wine (white and red) with French wines, and for Reds it was the hard way. Most French wines Drogue has listed, I wouldn't recommand them to newbies - they're too dry or too strong for an unused mouth, and one should go there progressively (however, you'll find gems there once you get used to drinking red).

I wouldn't recommend Bordeaux, Burgundy or Rhone to a newbie, no. But a Pinot Noir or a Merlot bases French gives something that is both a good guide of red wine (If you like that you'll probably like many reds kinda thing) while also being easy to drink. I don't find Aus to be easy to drink, because it's Cabernet and Shiraz in a large part, which are IMHO the hardest reds to drink, they're the biggest and harshest. However I can understand that the NW way of wines is easier and more forgiving, so I do agree with you there, I just think make sure you avoid Cabernet Sauvingon for a first try.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor My few experiences with Californian and Chilean wines were quite positive: while they had nothing exceptional, or even interesting, they sure were enjoyable and easy to drink. Definitely what I'd advise to newbies. Besides, there's the price argument: you wouldn't want to pay big bucks for an overrated Bordeaux you wouldn't even like UOTE] I have to say, my first was a Bordeaux (nothign special) and over here, it's a lot less overpriced than NW ones. We cannot buy an Aus or Cali wine for less than £5 here, and most are £6 or £7, whereas we can find much decent French country, and even the occasional Claret for $4 or £5. Simply for value, for a first few I'd go for South American and Eastern European wines (Chile, Argentina, Bulgaria and Romania), as they are dirt cheap, easy to drink and largely Merlot, and the labels tell you what they are and how to drink them usually. [QUOTE] Originally posted by Oerdin Sicko.

My thoughts exactly

quote: Originally posted by st_swithin Barolo has only one 'l'.

Very true My spelling isn’t too hot. I spelt Temprenillo wrong in my first post, but I’m not sure how it is meant to be spelt Tempranillo maybe?

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Vin de pays are cheap crap in their immense majority, but a few are great, because they aren't random mix of crap, but rather an elaborate micx that gives a great product... But being mixes, they can't have an official location name ; they're like small brands.

I have yet to find many, even Vin de Pays, that aren't at least drinkable. Now, for cheap crap, see Vin de Table, or Landwein/Tafelwein (sp) in Germany.

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I always found the location names to be highly misleading. Sure, it tells you where the wine is from but you have no clue as to what grape types are used and the type of grape has WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY more impact on the finish wine then region does.

The grape does have more impact, but in France they cannot say because they are often les than the 70% needed to call it a single varietal wine, and so cannot say which wine it is. But you learn which regions equate to which wines.

Rhone: Syrah (Shiraz to Oz people) and Grenache
Bordeaux: Merlot in St Emillion, Pinot Noir to the North (Graves and Medoc) and Cabernet Franc (IIRC) to the South
Southern Country wines (Languedoc and Rousillion for example): like Rhone, Syrah and Grenache, but sometimes with Merlot.
Burgundy: All sorts, Pinot Noir used a lot IIRC, but not too sure on much.

To start off, try Chilean or Eastern European (Burgundian and Romanian mostly), as they are the best value IMHO (dirt cheap and usually very drinkable ) Then try Californian, Aus, French, Spanish, Italian, Argentinian and South African, and see what you like. Each has it's own style, and it's all just a matter of taste.

You don't have to spend a fortune to enjoy good wine. The best White I ever drank cost me about £3 (less than you can buy any bottle over here (as tax is about £3 per bottle) from Germany (a 1989 Bernkastler Reisling Kabinet). I can regularly find reds over here that cost £4 and £5 a bottle that are really nice, and I wouldn’t recommend spending more than that to start with. However it does usually work that the more you spend, the better the wine you get.

	01-09-2003 20:57									#32
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Mmm, a nice Chianti Classico from '97, or a Rjoca Reserva(sp?) from '95 or '92. Yum. Really dry, full and deep.

Of course, if I'm not buying... last year's Bordeux is good, pretty dry too, of course, and Beujolais is good when its hot, but IMO a bit thin in flavor for the winter.

White wine only with fish, and then a dry one again.

Its worth paying a dollar/euro more per bottle because in the lower price range the quality drastically increases.

less than $2 - use it for cooking.
$2-3 - drinkable, just, but you might get lucky.
$3-5 - an everyday wine. I drink a bottle in this range most days (split with Mrs Jamski)
$5-10 - a good Sunday night wine, but a bit expensive to have more than once a week.
$10-30 - It must be my birthday
more than $30 - I really can't see that its soooo much better than the $10-30 stuff. Avoid unless you have a huge desire to show off to guests.

(for Brits, convert $ to pounds at 1:1 - yes it costs a lot more for you poor fools, why do you think I left the country?)
How could I live without wine?

	01-09-2003 21:11									#33
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Actually, from what I know of the states, it costs more there than here. The vinyanrds in the Napa Valley cost a fortune, the cheapest I saw was $12 a bottle, and most nearer $20. ANd in the UK we don't get wine cheaper than £2, since there is over that in tax for each bottle IIRC.

Rioja Reserva is great, I've had an '88 before which was v. v. nice, though it needs keeping IMHO. It lasts for ages, and mellows a lot. Even Tesco (big supermarket) sells 10 year old versions.

	01-09-2003 21:13									#34
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There are a number of candidates for best red wine in the world. Most would argue that the Bordeaux: Chateau La Tour takes that accolade. I have yet to taste that peticular wine, so I couldn't say for sure. But I will. My father has a bottle of Chateau La Tour 1990 which he is going to open the day he retires (next summer) so that is something I'm looking forward to.

Another wine that could claim the title is Chateau Petrus. That is one gorgeous wine. Rich, full bodied and just an experience that will knock your socks off. A pity that my budget doesn't allow me to drink that one every week.

The second best wine that I have ever tasted is the 2nd cru wine Chateau Pichon Longueville Comtesse de Lalande. An awesome experience. A wine that I can easily recommend to anybody in love with French wine. I remember buying two bottles for my father for christmas some years ago. Set me back app. 100$. But oh God. When he reciprocated by opening one of them for dinner a couple of months later. Pure heaven.

For great budget wines, with plenty of quality, you can not go wrong with Chilean wine. Real quality made there. And you can get them for a fraction of the price of French (Bordeaux) wines.

Asmodean

	01-09-2003 21:22									#35
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Red or white, it's all alright.

I'm joining The Times wine club when I get my first student loan cheque in. 24 bottles for £80..worth around £160 though.

	01-09-2003 21:54									#36
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I have still a few bottles of Chateau Latour 1989 out of case that I bought *en primeur* which means before the wine is on the market (about two years before, but after the harvest). The price was 38€. This is the only reasonable way those great bottles can be acquired.

	01-09-2003 22:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asmodean There are a number of candidates for best red wine in the world. Most would argue that the Bordeaux: Chateau La Tour takes that accolade.

I would have thought Margaux would personally, but then I prefer the heavier Merlot Claret. Their both premier cru, but Margaux is the more expensive IIRC.

quote: Originally posted by Asmodean For great budget wines, with plenty of quality, you can not go wrong with Chilean wine.

	01-09-2003 22:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I have still a few bottles of Chateau Latour 1989 out of case that I bought *en primeur* which means before the wine is on the market (about two years before, but after the harvest). The price was 38€. This is the only reasonable way those great bottles can be acquired.

You lucky lucky ****. 1989=brilliant year across Europe, and for 38 Euros. That's rediculously cheap. I would have thought it would have been at least 100, even getting it specially. I want a bottle of Latour now

	01-09-2003 22:35									#39
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The bottle of Latour that my father has (it's a 1990), I bought him for his 50th birthday. That was in feb. 1994. I got it for 70 euros.

Asmodean

	02-09-2003 02:09									#40
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Yes, some of the East Euro wines are quite drinkable. I've grown fond of Avia, which is Slovenian from the Primorski Region.

I didn't know Slovenia was big enough to have "regions."

I've never seen wines below $4 (if you don't count a 1.5L bottle for $7.95) and only once below $5. Not sure I'd trust a $2 wine unless it were some bulk price. Maybe Cali and LV are different from the rest of the country.

	02-09-2003 02:41									#41
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I once had Hungarian Bluda (spelling) and it was reasonably good. I've never tried Rumanian, Maldovian, or Georgian wines before but I hear they're nothing special. Before the communist period though supposedly several good wines came from these areas. Perhaphes in the future they will modernize and come out with some good wines.

	02-09-2003 04:25									#42
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Rothschild, 1926.

	02-09-2003 05:07									#43
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"It's funny that Italian food in Italy just didn't taste as good as Italian food in the U.S."

GRRRRRRRRRR!

	02-09-2003 05:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Besides, we don't exactly export our best, when it comes to price / quality ratio. We have tons of good and affordable wines that are barely risky to drink (I'm talking about reds... French whites are hardly risky, especially Alsaces), but you have to look at the right places with the right vendors to get them... If you ever go to Paris when I'm there, we'll get a "cuite" together and you'll know

That sounds great. I'll bring lots of money next time I come to Paris and you can be my guide to French wines. Btw, I did have some nice Alsatian wine in Strasbourg when I was there in 2000. I normally don't care all that much for white wines, but this one was of very good quality. I also had escargot (sp?) for the first time there, and it wasn't bad at all.

	02-09-2003 05:43									#45
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "It's funny that Italian food in Italy just didn't taste as good as Italian food in the U.S." GRRRRRRRRRR!

Actually this is a common lament, and if the regional Italian restaurants I have sampled in the U.S. are any indication I would agree with it. American Italian food is like a region of its own. It's not necessarily of lower quality, but almost always a better value here in the states. I wish we had an American Italian restaurant here in Boulder. All we have are these pricy regional Italian restaurants, and they don't provide a very good value for the quality. Some of them frankly suck.

	02-09-2003 07:23									#46
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Chinese food tastes better in China, but you can't get delivery ANYWHERE.

Italian food is definitely better in the states. I'm lucky that Little Italy is so freaking close to Chinatown.

	02-09-2003 07:43									#47
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Yeah, but Chinese wine sucks.

	02-09-2003 07:46									#48
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Asians turn red when they drink alcohol because they're embarassed by that fact.


"Stop f**king with my goddamn rhinos!!"

	02-09-2003 08:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident come on! surely some of you weenies drink something besides Zima . Or Smirnoff Ice

I can enjoy a semi-dry glass of white or red wine.

	02-09-2003 14:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As long as they leave Bordeaux alone.

Only the top châteaux, though

	04-09-2003 18:23									#51
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quote: I have yet to find many, even Vin de Pays, that aren't at least drinkable. Now, for cheap crap, see Vin de Table, or Landwein/Tafelwein (sp) in Germany.

I confused both. I meant "Vin de Table"
While the huge majority of "vin de table" is crap, a few are of good quality, because they're done by professionals who love their job and who love wine (you'll have trouble finding them though )

	04-09-2003 20:21									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor While the huge majority of "vin de table" is crap, a few are of good quality, because they're done by professionals who love their job and who love wine (you'll have trouble finding them though )

Indeed, we won't find them over here. Almost the only vin de table that they have over here are the cheap boxes of wine Since our tax is a flat fee per bottle, it isn't worth bringing over wine that is dirt cheap, as it still has to pay the same £2 odd tax every bottle does. It simply isn't worth the cost of importing it.

	04-09-2003 20:54									#53
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A wine thread.

I used to be like you, Dissident -- liked white, didn't "get" the red wine thing. They always seemed to give me a headache, left a weird taste in my mouth the next morning, etc. But that attitude changed dramatically about 10 or 12 years ago. Here's the key --

YOU *MUST* DRINK GOOD WINES. (This is true of white and red alike.) And you can get some pretty decent grape for $10 - 20 US$. Cheap wines inflict pain. A really good wine can be a pretty transcendent taste experience.

I'm now much more into reds than whites. Overall, they seem to have more complexity of flavor. Part of this is due to the fact that I generally drink wine with a dinner and I'm a meat-eater.

Overall, I tend to prefer drier wines (and thus, I don't share the love of zinfandel that several here espouse).

Faves -- cabernet, burgundy (btw there are some excellent white burgs...), merlot, and sometimes a syrah (a lighter blend). The great bargains in red wines are from Chile and Argentina. There are also some excellent Aussie wines, but they've been "discovered" so the bargains aren't as great as they were a few years back.

At the top end, French wines are king, but (cf several entries above) cheap French table wines are NOT the way to go.

It helps to have a friendly, even semi-knowledgeable clerk at your liquor store. (Even if they don't really know wine, they do know what their other customers buy on a repeating basis.) If your local booze shop is wine-impaired, stick with mid-priced California reds. Though not always outstanding, they are pretty dependably decent. Some excellent bargains still to be had.

I regard Italian wines as more of a crapshoot, and will [U]only{/U] have them "with dinner." I've had very uneven experiences -- some amazingly good (an expensive chianti classico comes to mind), some horrifically bad.

If you're going to get into this sort of thing, you might want to go to a low-key tasting. You'll learn a bit more about evaluating a wine beyond the "gulp factor" and it'll make you more comfortable ordering in restaurants. Then, start to keep a little notebook and bring it with you when you go out to eat. Discreetly note the wine you got (brand, type, and vintage), what you ate, and what you and your companions thought of it. (Remember -- it's not just about getting a good wine. How the wine potentiates the flavors of the food you're eating - and vice versa - is really the key.) After a few times, you'll begin to learn what you like, and what you like it with. Soon, you'll be pretty comfortable making menu choices.

The key to becoming a wine lover is, quite simply, drinking good wine. The cool thing is that, like music, it's all about personal taste. You can't be "wrong" about what *you* like.

	04-09-2003 22:42									#54
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I love Red Wine.

I like Cabernet Savingon, Sangiovese, a blend of those two, Chiraz (often blended with CS)...

I started with Italian wines, and now have branched out to Chile, Australia and Spain. At first, given the staggering number of wines out there, I felt I needed to arbitrarily limit my choices so I didn't go nuts. Since I'm about 25% Sicilian, I chose Italian wine.

I don't like Merlot much, and really don't like Chianti.

White wine is crap, IMO.

-Arrian

p.s. As to price, I usually pay $10-15 a bottle. It doesn't have to be expensive to be tasty.

	05-09-2003 03:13									#55
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Syrah (Shiraz to Oz people)

And Shiraz to Canadian people.

Excellent wine.

	05-09-2003 05:12									#56
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In California the Santa Ynez valley in the Santa Barbara region is know for producing the best Syrah in the state.

	05-09-2003 15:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Syrah

Rarely will you find Syrah call Syrah on on it's own though. Most Syrah I know of comes from the Rhone Valley and i mixed with Grenache. Isn't it Shiraz in all the new world, or is Cali different?

	09-09-2003 05:00									#58
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I open a bottle of good Aussie Shiraz in memory of our friend, Scouse Gits (2)

Rest in Peace, SG(2)

	09-09-2003 14:11									#59
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A fine thread to dedicate to (2) ...

Thanks Stray

Stu

	09-09-2003 16:37									#60
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You can find good wines in any country. I personally favor (what else...) Greek wine, with Italy a close second. As for French wine, it may be good but they can keep it....

So long...