Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > The Grinch That Stole Labor Day!
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 05:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
The Grinch That Stole Labor Day! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
THE GRINCH THAT STOLE LABOR DAY
by Greg Palast
Friday, August 29, 2003
In celebration of the working person's holiday, Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao has announced the Bush Administration's plan to end the 60-year-old law which requires employers to pay time-and-a-half for overtime.



I'm sure you already knew that -- if you happened to have run across page 15,576 of the Federal Register.



According to the Register, where the Bush Administration likes to place it's little gifts to major campaign donors, 2.7 million workers will lose their overtime pay -- for a "benefit" of $1.53 billion. I put "benefit" in quotes because, in the official cost-benefit analysis issued by Bush's Labor Department, the amount employers will now be able to slice out of workers' pockets is tallied on the plus side of the rules change.



Nevertheless, workers getting their pay snipped shouldn't complain, because they will all be receiving promotions. These employees will be re-classified as managers exempt from the law. The change is promoted by the National Council of Chain Restaurants. You've met these 'managers' - they're the ones in the beanies and aprons whose management decisions are, "Hold the lettuce on that."



My favorite of Chao's little amendments would re-classify as "exempt professionals" anyone who learned their skill in the military. In other words, thousands of veterans will now lose overtime pay. I just can't understand why Bush didn't announce that one when he landed on the aircraft carrier.



CHOICE NUMBER FOUR: BREAK THE LAW



Now I should say that, according to Chao's press office, the changes will actually extend overtime benefits to 1.3 million burger flippin' managers. How does that square with the billion dollar "benefit" to business owners? Simple: The Chao hounds at the Labor Department suggest that employers CUT WAGES so that, with the new "overtime" pay, the employes won't actually take home a dime more.



I can hear the moaners and bleeding hearts saying, this sounds like the Labor Department is telling Big Business how to evade the law. Yep, that's what the Department is doing. Right there on page 15,576 of the Federal Register it says,



"Affected employers would have four choices concerning potential payroll costs: … (4) converting salaried employees' basis of pay to an hourly rate that result in virtually no changes to the total compensation paid those workers."



And in case some employer is dense as a president and doesn't get the hint, Madame Chao repeats, "…The fourth choice above results in virtually no (or only a minimal) increase in labor costs."



For decades, the courts have thrown the book at cheapskate bosses who chisel workers out of legal overtime by cutting base pay this way … but now they'll have a new defense: Bush made me do it.



But then, there won't be any cases against employers, because Chao is the labor cop that is supposed to stop paycheck theft. She's well qualified for the job. Her resume reads, "Married to Republican Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky." I called her press office to ask if she qualifies for overtime, but they'd left the office early.



And good news for our sporting President. Word from the White House is he'll be golfing on the Labor Day weekend. Under Chao's rules, he need not worry if he wants to replay that hole. "Exempt professionals" who cannot earn overtime - once defined as doctors, lawyers and those with specialized college degrees - will now include anyone who provides skilled advice … like caddies ("You might try the other end of the club, Mr. President").




THE ACORN FALLS ONLY SO FAR



Finally, on this Labor Day weekend, it's time this nation took a cold look at the issue of hard-core unemploymen. Neo-conservatives have warned us about families that pass on joblessness from generation to generation.



Take, for example, the sad case of the Bush family. When Poppy Bush was president, unemployment hit a generational high of over 9 million Americans. Bill Clinton, through education and hard work, put more than 3 million of those citizens back on the job.



Now Bush Junior, repeating his family pattern of joblessness, has presided over the return of unemployment for 9 million Americans.



This was not unexpected, sociologists warn us. Hard core unemployment, through failed schooling and a don't-care attitude, takes on a nearly genetic character. The acorn falls only so far from the tree. Especially when the nut falls on its head.



Greg Palast is author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. View his investigative reports for BBC Television's Newsnight, at www.GregPalast.com



This was the primary talking point on a talk radio show I listen to on Sundays at noon in Chicago. I wonder when America is going to wake up and see this president for what he is??? ... a class warrior in the most vicious sense...

Happy Labor Day Weekend! For what it's worth...

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 05:58 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Be quiet and drink your victory gin.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:03
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

Good thing you got out the word on this to Apolyton--I hadn't known it myself.

That's the biggest problem with the Bush administration--Americans simply being ignorant of how truly underhanded and evil he is. The second biggest problem, of course, would be the neocons out there saying "Bush is a Prophet of God and can do no wrong, hail the Almighty Bush," but the first problem is bigger and worse.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

quote:
Good thing you got out the word on this to Apolyton--I hadn't known it myself.
And our corporate owned media isn't about to give this any attention... liberal indeed...

quote:
That's the biggest problem with the Bush administration--Americans simply being ignorant of how truly underhanded and evil he is. The second biggest problem, of course, would be the neocons out there saying "Bush is a Prophet of God and can do no wrong, hail the Almighty Bush," but the first problem is bigger and worse.
Don't worry mrmitchell... Americans will eventually catching on... I just hope it's before such policies drive us into another Great Depression.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:11 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

I've been watching the Fox News channel recently and it really does terrify me. No wonder no-one has a clue what Bush is doing.

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For the unemployed, the weekend is just another couple of days in which your friends may or may not have time to hang out with your out-of-work a55.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We don't risk being drove into a Great Depression, where IIRC everyone lost out a shitload. We risk more in our freedoms department (Patriot Act, anyone?) and in our asses department (sometime a foreigner is going to kick them badly if we don't stop). Economically, we risk entering a prolonged recession where more of the middle class drops to the lower class while the upper class continues its regular Earth-raping corporate whore act.

(I think.)

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Published on Friday, August 29, 2003 by the Los Angeles Times
Time Bomb Ticks Beneath the Economy
Huge Federal Deficits Could Stall Investment and Send Interest Rates Soaring

by Robert B. Reich

The Congressional Budget Office reported this week that the federal budget is completely out of control. Even if spending doesn't grow as a share of the national economy, the green eyeshades at the budget office forecast $400-billion deficits as far as the eye can see.

The last time the budget was nearly this far out of whack, the country got up in arms. In 1992, Bill Clinton used the runaway budget to beat up the elder George Bush. Once elected, Clinton had to shelve most of his "public investment" agenda to reduce what was then a $29-billion-a-year deficit and calm Wall Street's jitters. In 1995, Newt Gingrich threatened to push through a balanced budget amendment until Clinton agreed to cut spending even more. By this time, there was a consensus in both parties that deficit spending had to be reined in. By 1997, as the economy recovered, the deficit disappeared.

Now we're in worse shape than in 1992, but the deficit doesn't seem to arouse more than a giant yawn. What gives?

Democrats won't lead the charge. That's because they're in a bind. If they criticize Bush on the massive deficits, they have to have a plan for reducing them. But how? If they demand repeal of the Bush tax cuts, Republicans will blast them for wanting to raise taxes. If they call for spending cuts, they will have to come up with some big-ticket items to cut. Yet they don't want to appear soft on national defense, they back a Medicare drug benefit, and they want more spending on education and health care.

Besides, Democrats would rather attack Bush for his dismal record on jobs. They don't want to blur their economic message with a lot of breast-beating about deficits. The public cares more about jobs than deficits any day. And on this score, the Dems have plenty of ammunition — more than a million jobs lost since the recession officially ended in November 2001, and jobs are still hemorrhaging.

Bottom line: Democrats will grumble about Bush's "fiscal irresponsibility," but they won't make it a big deal.

Don't expect congressional Republicans to sound the alarm either, especially in the year before an election. They know the runaway budget is largely the Republican president's fault, and party loyalty runs thick. Even the Congressional Budget Office (headed by a former Bush White House staffer) says that if Bush gets everything he wants — extensions of his tax cuts, a Medicare drug benefit and money to rebuild Iraq and stabilize Afghanistan — the budget deficit goes into the stratosphere.

Anyway, if the runaway budget isn't Bush's fault, then it must be Congress' fault. And who's in charge of Congress? Republicans. That's the inconvenient thing about running all branches of government. You can't blame the other guys.

Republicans also learned an important lesson in the last budget crisis. The best way to fulfill their dream of a tiny government in Washington is to starve it. Make the deficit grow so big that in a few years Democrats will have no choice but to go along with massive spending cuts — slashing even sacred cows like Social Security and Medicare. The strategy worked before. The giant deficits that the first Bush ran up made it impossible for Clinton to do much of anything.

If neither party will make a big deal out of the runaway budget deficits, the American public won't much care. Here's another lesson from the '90s: Americans don't like the idea of gigantic budget deficits when they symbolize a government that's out of control. But large deficits in themselves don't bother most people. Who can possibly grasp the meaning of $1.4 trillion (the CBO's 10-year deficit forecast)? The public is worried about jobs, paychecks and terrorism. Budget deficits are abstractions.

Where's Wall Street in all this? In the early '90s, you may remember, bond traders were howling about out-of-control budget deficits because the government's voracious need to borrow was crowding out private investment. Not this time, at least not yet. The economy still is so flaccid that not even $400-billion deficits are putting a crimp in corporate borrowing. Most businesses have no interest in investing until there's enough demand for their products and services to warrant it. In fact, big federal deficits are needed right now to stimulate demand and get the economy back on track.

So what's the problem with Bush's deficits? The crunch will come a few years from now, once the economy is back on track. Then, the projected deficits will create havoc because they will use up scarce capital. The Medicare drug benefit that Bush wants is likely to balloon as boomers retire. Huge military outlays, combined with the billions needed for rebuilding Iraq and ensuring homeland security, will continue because the war against terrorism is likely to go on and on. And if Bush gets his way and makes permanent his temporary tax breaks, the budget gap will only get worse.

This means interest rates will go sky-high. They may already be heading that way. Wall Street is just beginning to feel nervous about the projected deficits. Mortgage rates are moving upward in many parts of the country. It stands to reason. Who wants to lend money at 6% for 15 years when there's a good chance of a capital squeeze in a few years that pushes long-term rates north of 10%?

Higher long-term rates can stall the recovery and hurt Bush's chance of being reelected. In other words, if Bush chokes on the projected red ink, it won't be because of Democrats or Republicans. It will be because Wall Street starts to worry about the future.

Robert B. Reich, a former U.S. secretary of Labor, is a professor at Brandeis.

Copyright 2003 Los Angeles Times


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0829-03.htm

Another Great Depression is quite possible mrmitchell. The Economic Policy Institute warned of this very thing during the first Bush tax cuts in 2001 and during the debate over tax cuts in early 2003. America, in addition to government debt, is also swimming in consumer debt. Eventually, it's going to catch up with us unless we get someone in office who cares more about helping America rather than his rich buddies.

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:31
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm pretty freaking depressed all the time. Must be related somehow.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:34
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So, who are the Dem alternatives to Bush again?

Plan for Balancing the Budget:
1) Repeal all tax cuts. Deport those responsible for them to North Korea.
2) Accept UN help into Iraq.
3) Return military spending to pre-Bush levels.
4) Disband Homeland Security, etc. The Homeland is not any more Secure than it was, so we can assume it is merely a black hole for money.
5) Legalise marijuana, with a federal tax on it. The tax creates income of course, and the police no longer have to deal with hunting down marijuana, so they can get to real issues on the same or a slightly larger budget. I bet the War on Drugs is a huge drain on the budget.

How much would each of these save? I forget

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

At least half the current national debt, maybe more.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

6) If any of those that were responsible for the tax cuts make it back from North Korea alive, put them in the stocks(?) and let people throw tomatoes at them for a buck a pop.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:41 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You don't UNDERSTAND! There are TERRORISTS everywhere, wanting to destroy our beautiful homeland until there is NOTHING left! They want YOU dead! They could be anywhere - across the street, that lady who looks at you FUNNY when you get in the elevator! I have to kill them first!


Is that an appropriate level of paranoia? Or do I have to wait for an orange alert?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 06:48 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is great! It's about time those freeloading worker/thiefs get less money!!

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 07:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Isn't that the same thing as a robber baron?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 07:42
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Sava
And our corporate owned media isn't about to give this any attention... liberal indeed...


The Federal Register has tons of stuff in it. None of it that I've ever seen (mostly EPA stuff and FERC stuff, with BLM, BIA, USFS, USFWS, USMFS and a little DoL, address state and local regulations that may affect the same subject matter.

Federal labor laws are the minimum standards that apply in the absense of related subject state laws, and that apply in areas where the Federal government is the local jurisdiction as well.

Most states, to get out of being regulated directly by the Feds, have their own labor laws on the same subjects, and state law may be more stringent than Federal, but not less so. Many states have the same standards as the Feds, but simply enact them at the state level to give the state primary enforcement authority over those issues.

It's not clear, without an analysis of all local jurisdiction's (state, territorial, DC and native sovereign nation) overtime laws, how many people, if any will actually be affected. The number listed in the Federal Register is just the maximum number without regard for local jurisdiction laws, based on Dept. of Labor wage and work classification statistics that are themselves suspect, since there is no mandatory reporting requirement on employers.

So nice try, but put some meat between the buns before you worry about how many fries short of a happy meal you are.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 07:43
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Bush is a Prophet of God and can do no wrong, hail the Almighty Bush.

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 07:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

McD's is great - they start offering a Veggie McBurger, and in the fine print it says "veggie patties processed with chicken."

HEE HEE!!!!

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 07:54 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!



Everything there is fried in animal fat anyways.

st_swithin is offline st_swithin
CTP1/2 GODDESS
10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 08:01
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

I just want to see the look on some devout vegetarian's face when he reads that after having downed one of those greaseball McNasties.

red_jon is offline red_jon
King
Uni of Wales Swansea
Oct 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 08:05 Visit red_jon's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

The vegetarians I know are sane enough to steer clear of F*ckRonald's.

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 08:33 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All capitalists should be thrown out of helicopters. Sometimes almost makes me wish we lost the Cold War.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 08:46
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Great news, let the marketplace work and we won't see such high unemployment. This is just like minimum wage laws that liberals defend without ever acknowledging the people who lost their jobs because their production value was less than the minimum wage.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 09:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So you're saying the federal government should not require businesses to pay a bit more than usual for overtime?

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
Emperor
topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 09:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

Correct, that would violate the Constitution and Congress' moral authority...

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 10:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Great news, let the marketplace work and we won't see such high unemployment. This is just like minimum wage laws that liberals defend without ever acknowledging the people who lost their jobs because their production value was less than the minimum wage.


Shut up or I'll trow you out of a helicopter.

This doesn't suprise me, Bush is controled by his corporate superiors.

The Templar is offline The Templar
Prince
People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 10:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Correct, that would violate the Constitution and Congress' moral authority...


So I guess you are opposed to the 40 hr work week? Because time and a half for overtime is the only thing that keeps the 40 hr week in existence.

Although, I suppose if we really wanted to let the market control things, we would eliminate all those nasty laws holding unions back, right? Stop governmental interference with the establishment of union shops and use of secondary boycotts - those are after all, interference with the market.

You are libertarian enough to get the government off the backs of the unions, right Berzerk?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 10:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV



Where in the Constitution is Congress' "moral authority" mentioned?

And how is regulating interstate commerce unconstitutional?

(naaah, don't answer that, I know the LP has a uniquely narrow definition of "interstate commerce" such that a guy has to set up a stand to sell stuff, such that the stand straddles a state border, there's a line painted on it, and people have to hand over the goods and the cash both exactly on the line before it's an interstate commerce issue. )

The Mad Monk is offline The Mad Monk
Emperor
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 12:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

It seems to me that overtime helps reduce unemployment, because beyond certain points it becomes cheaper to just hire another worker to cover.

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 01-09-2003 13:31 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Overtime is hardly the problem. Unemployment is caused by the benefits that employers give to employees. These benefits are essentially a flat rate wage paid out regardless of hours worked. Thus companies attempt to hire as few people as possible and make them work as long as possible.

 
Pages (2): [ 1   2   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:30.
Apolyton Time is 00:30.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0832 seconds (93.21% PHP - 6.79% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net