01-09-2003 09:42									#1
	California's Prop 54: Racial Privacy Initiative Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you haven't heard already, there's a new Proposision on the recall ballot for the California election to be held October 7th. This new proposition will prevent California governments (state and local) from collecting data on Californian's race or ethnicity. It's written by Ward Connerly (an affirmative action foe) and he says it will take California "beyond race--to stop living the hyphen"

According to Time, right now it's about 50% for and 29% against this proposition.

I'm not so sure this is a good idea. Some of the opponents point out that making associations between diseases and ethnicity will become more difficult as death certificates won't include race. Schools and Unis won't be able to collect racial data, and so forth. :S

What's your take on Prop 54?

http://www.calvoter.org/recall/prop54.html

	01-09-2003 10:09									#2
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I think it's a good idea.

The bit about tracking ethnicity and diseases is an ignorant and scientifically bogus stretch - Sickle Cell anemia is the largest and best documented example of an assumed "racial" disease that in fact isn't "racial" or "ethnic" at all - the carrier gene has been favorably selected for in the so-called "malaria belt" including some middle east caucasians, many tropical and subtropical Latinamerican indigenous populations have it to a high extent. Many areas of Africa, and Hispanics of primarily European and non-tropical LA indigenous descent have only random occurances of the mutant carrier gene.

The real distribution is not only unrelated to social concepts of "race," it is radically different.

Other genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs occur only in very distinct genetic groups, which are far too narrowly defined to fit a "race" category.

There's no good reason to keep an antiquated social construct.

	01-09-2003 10:12									#3
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NO!!!

	01-09-2003 10:24									#4
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YES!!!

	01-09-2003 11:00									#5
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I voted yes. This is a very good idea.

	01-09-2003 11:04									#6
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NO. How can the state know if it is fulfilling its civil right commitments without this data?

A great case of simplistic ideology over good policy.

	01-09-2003 12:01									#7
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If "civil rights commitments" mean numerical quotas for everything, then you've got a point. I mean, how can we assure equality under the law without simplistic labels to segregate everyone under.

The way you meet civil rights commitments is to examine complaints and issues on their specific merits, rather than hiding behind statistics and quotas that are near meaningless anyway.

Unless you want to go back to legal standards defining who's white and who's colored, and putting that data on their birth records.

	02-09-2003 00:04									#8
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One thing I'm thinking about is college admissions policies.

A little while ago, there was a proposition which passed that prevented California run universities from using race as a determining factor in who the universities accept. The biggest argument against this was that taking out the race factor would kill diversity in colleges and universities.

I believe Michigan recently had one such law going to the supreme court.

Is the idea of having diversity a big enough deterent to eliminating the race category from State forms? This also means that when one registers to vote in California, race can no longer be one of the questions asked.

I'm also curious as to whether this is a step back towards the "melting pot" idea where everyone who comes to America becomes American. I know a couple of years ago, people at Berkeley High School (I tutored there for a while) we're talking about America being a "mixed salad" and that the "melting pot" isn't a very good analogy cause people come into America with their own culture and even 2 or 3 generations later, still have some of their own culture.

If this measure does pass, it will be interesting to see in the future if this will really help the minorities integrate into the common culture and not be discriminated against.

Forgive me for my broad generalization here, but my feeling is that it will help those minority cultures who embrace the American ideal of hard work/college education = success achieve having the higher paying jobs (many Asian cultures) while hurting those that don't pursue education as diligently (African America and some Latino/Spanish cultures).

Of course, whether this is right or wrong is a whole other question all together.

	02-09-2003 00:19									#9
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I'm voting for it and unlike most of the people here I can actually vote in California.

	02-09-2003 00:24									#11
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Only a Nazi government would keep record of the citizens' race.

Remember the stamp in the passport: JUDE

	02-09-2003 00:27									#12
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The record-keeping of race is useful in the study of psychology.

Oh well. At least I always have the other states

	02-09-2003 00:50									#13
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I support this. It's time we look past race (and yes that includes special treatment of minorities)

	02-09-2003 00:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If "civil rights commitments" mean numerical quotas for everything, then you've got a point. I mean, how can we assure equality under the law without simplistic labels to segregate everyone under. The way you meet civil rights commitments is to examine complaints and issues on their specific merits, rather than hiding behind statistics and quotas that are near meaningless anyway. Unless you want to go back to legal standards defining who's white and who's colored, and putting that data on their birth records.

Please. If there was no substintial difference in incarceration rates, rates at which individual get the DP, rates of poverty, lack of access to government resources and so forth between individual of different races, I might give this a thought. BUt those differences do exist. So spare me the bull.

	02-09-2003 02:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Please. If there was no substintial difference in incarceration rates, rates at which individual get the DP, rates of poverty, lack of access to government resources and so forth between individual of different races, I might give this a thought. BUt those differences do exist. So spare me the bull.

Since we're talking about a California initiative, perhaps you could point out which of those problems have been shown to apply extensively to California, studies that have shown that those problems in California, to the extent they exist, are rooted in some systematic and fundamental denial of civil rights, and why statistic gathering rather than responding individually or on a class action basis is a more effective method for addressing any such problems. Until you come up with specific relevant to California, spare me the New York one-size-fits-all liberal bull.

	02-09-2003 02:53									#16
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Given the tract record of California since all these ballot innitiatives came into force, maybe NY-liberal on size fits all bull would be much better thanwhat you guys have. After all, ten your educational system woudldn;t be a disgrace.

BUt now you are going to tell me that in cali there is no difference of poverty rates among different racial and ethnic groups, that minorities are not incarcerated at higher rates, and that the policre treat all suspect equally, regardless of race, right?

	02-09-2003 03:02									#17
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Does this mean that as a by-product ALLl California state-run universaties cant base ANYTHING on race?

If so- YES YES YES

	02-09-2003 03:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Given the tract record of California since all these ballot innitiatives came into force, maybe NY-liberal on size fits all bull would be much better thanwhat you guys have. After all, ten your educational system woudldn;t be a disgrace.

The biggest problem is one of funding. Tax increases are capped due to a proposition passed in the 1970's and the Democrat crontrolled state house (has been Democrat for 30 years) is hide bound to the teachers unions and social activist groups. The result? Real education and accountability goes out the window and is replaced by PC trash.

Luckily, the Republicans passed a deevolution of power for educational issues down to the counties so now we have about half of the counties with real tough educational standards and about half with the old social promotion "whitey is evil" leftist crap. Bush's educational bill will help too because it will give parent's and students a way out of failing schools like LA Unified or Oakland Unified. As student enrollement falls hopefully the entrenched bearuocrates who caused all of the problems will be forced to resign.

Another key bill is set to go before the state house next season. It requires the students and/or school facilities to get 80% of the education spending and the over head can't be more then 20%. Most school districts already meet this goal but some like LA spend 40% (!!!!) of the education dollar on over head. By weeding out such missmanagement and redirecting money towards students we're bound to see improvements especially as it will harm the biggest special interest (teachers unions).

	02-09-2003 03:10									#19
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When California's schools come anywehre close to school systems in the state of NY, or NJ or Conneticutt, then you guys can talk.

As for this issue: if race did not matter anymore, fine, it makes no sense to gather the info. But race sadly does matter, so the info is worthiwhile.

	02-09-2003 03:18									#20
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Well, I don't know which test results your talking about but if it's SAT results then we already beat New York and New Jersey and are just 2 points (out of 1600) behind Conneticutt.

http://www.sde.state.sc.us/reports/sat00/state.htm

	02-09-2003 04:35									#21
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Ahh, how to lie with figures..well,
1. those figures are for 2000.
Second: California had 49% participation, while NY had 77% participation.

Now, maybe it is just me, but that would seem to matter, no?

	02-09-2003 04:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GePap When California's schools come anywehre close to school systems in the state of NY, or NJ or Conneticutt, then you guys can talk.

We can talk any time we damn well please.

And there's a hell of a lot more to state government that running school districts.

	02-09-2003 04:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Given the tract record of California since all these ballot innitiatives came into force, maybe NY-liberal on size fits all bull would be much better thanwhat you guys have. After all, ten your educational system woudldn;t be a disgrace.

Well, gee, you guys don't have to spend nearly as much on new capital projects, because.... (drumroll.... )

You're all moving out HERE!

California has the fastest population growth and the highest levels of immigration from other states than any other state in the union. Accomodation of that growth puts a huge strain on statewide education and other services, and is an issue no other state deals with on anywhere near similar a scale.

Come next census, how much you want to be we'll get another electoral vote or two?

How much you want to be that we might get one of yours, like we already have in past decades?

quote: BUt now you are going to tell me that in cali there is no difference of poverty rates among different racial and ethnic groups, that minorities are not incarcerated at higher rates, and that the policre treat all suspect equally, regardless of race, right?

Ahhh, this is why liberals can't run anything successfully. There's either "no problem" or "a massive problem than can only be solved by pigeonholing people into five or arbitrary characteristics, then deciding who to throw money at based on which box they check." Could there be any other way of describing the issue? Naaaah, quotas are easy for retards, so our voter base will be able to understand them.

	02-09-2003 04:56									#24
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hmm, yes, quotas must be bad..lets repeall the blakc quotas for prisons, or the DP, or poverty ofr that matter!

I always see conservatives *****ing about the "left",and at bottom of this is the claim that the elft does things for ideological reasons, ignoring reality in the process. Well, this is a prime example of conservatives doing the same sh1t.

Lets see..does being a minority make a statistical difference, when it comes to, hmm, being poor? Being in a failing school? Dying at higher rates of chronic diseases? Being more likely to be the victim of a crime? Being more likely to go to prison? being more likely to die if convicted of a murder?

Yes, the answer to all of those is yes. Now, for most 9save the DP one), one could argue that it is being poor that matters. Fine, but since eing black means that statisticaly you are more likely to be poor, obviosuly this remains an important statistic to have when figuring out policy..too bad blind ideology (Ohh lord, god help us if several thousand whiute and asian kids don;t get into their top pick!! The horror, the horror!!!) serves some people better.

NOw, some of you seemt o think 4 decades already wiped oiut the effects of a couple of centuries of slavery and a century of Jim Crow. Personally, the numbers I see don;t validate that rosy self-characterization. {erhaps what was said about the Germans, Jews and the holocaust must be said here:

Whites will never forgive blacks for slavery and Jim crow, making whites feel guilty like that.

	02-09-2003 06:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GePap BUt now you are going to tell me that in cali there is no difference of poverty rates among different racial and ethnic groups, that minorities are not incarcerated at higher rates, and that the policre treat all suspect equally, regardless of race, right?

What does this have to do with anything? Suppose all this (what you say above) is false. What good effect is a half-assed racial labeling system going to have on any of these cases? We already have the half-asssed racial labeling system in place around the country and these cases seem to be nearly ubiquitous despite it. The issues that you list above are all cultural issues, with the exception of police relations which is both cultural and racial. Culture is where it's at baby, and they never ask anyone a damn thing about that.

I never fill out the race section of a questionaire because I feel it is wrong to categorize people by race for most purposes, and as there is never a category that fits me anyway. I'd rather leave the damn thing blank. I'd vote yes if I lived in Cali. Instead I'll have to mention this election to my dad and best friend who can probably be persuaded to vote yes on this issue.

	02-09-2003 06:29									#26
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Why does the government need to know what race you are?

If researchers need to know it for some reason, then:

1) Call every 10th person in the phone book.
2) Ask them "Are you black?"

	02-09-2003 07:11									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ahh, how to lie with figures..well, 1. those figures are for 2000. Second: California had 49% participation, while NY had 77% participation. Now, maybe it is just me, but that would seem to matter, no?

Please Gepap. No one has lied here at all. I used 2000 because those are the only ones I could find online. Maybe you could do better? I would like to see the latest scores if you have them. Particaption rate might or might not effect scores but California is a very large state with a lot of rural areas. I know that in rural areas alot of people choice not to go to college and if you're not going to college then why take a college entrence exam?

Please show me the test scores you where using to base your claim that Calfornia's school system is so inferior to everyone elses.

	02-09-2003 07:20									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I support this. It's time we look past race (and yes that includes special treatment of minorities)

To ignore it doesn't make it go away, how can gathering less information be a good thing?

	02-09-2003 08:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GePap hmm, yes, quotas must be bad..lets repeall the blakc quotas for prisons, or the DP, or poverty ofr that matter!

So we have to fry more of whitey to keep the DP rates at the same rate as the general population, regardless of the severity of the murders committed?

And let's make sure a proportionate number of those born with silver spoon in hand white devils are downtrodden to make sure our poverty levels are proportionate.

quote: I always see conservatives *****ing about the "left",and at bottom of this is the claim that the elft does things for ideological reasons, ignoring reality in the process. Well, this is a prime example of conservatives doing the same sh1t.

Ahh, let's see. The "left" has had three decades and change of quota based statistical approaches to all these problems. Have the problems been solved in three decades and change? Hell no, but a lot of money has been spent, and a lot of careers made in "advocacy," lobbying and interest groups.

The approach don't work. You want to talk education? It takes 12 years to go from 1st to 12th grade. You've had two complete cycles of students and then some go through the school systems, with the same type of statistical "race" based targeting of aid programs, grants, etc. Guess what, bub? It hasn't worked. Three decades and change of a failed approach is more than enough. Too bad the people who've made careers out of promoting this nonsense will have to either think of new solutions and prove their ability in implementing them, or they'll have to get out there in the job market.

Gee, instead of lumping everyone into five or so racial groups... maybe we can look for real answers. (hmmm, my Yale-bound daughter is half Japanese, so she could do the Asian-Pacific Islander slot along with Hmong and Montagnard refugees, but in California, those people are considered "whitey" too for all intents and purposes. My son, underprivileged as he is, can do Hispanic, so he'll be among the downtrodden. Wonder what kind of benefits there will be for that?)

We all know how downtrodden redskins, oops, er Indians, oos, er, Native Americans are, especially those 350 odd registered members of the Viejas band of Kumeyaay Indians, who each, man, woman and child, get a ton of money from their casino and shopping center operations.

How could my Asian daughter, my Hispanic son, and those poor Native Americans have a situation different from the statistical norms of their "race?" It's just not possible, I tell you, statistics show the average er, um never mind, BUT THEY'RE ALL OPRESSED BY WHITE CONSERVATIVES!!!!! and we need to preserve quota based programs, no matter how prone to misreporting and abuse, no matter how ineffective, because our jobs as advocates are at stake here!

quote: Lets see..does being a minority make a statistical difference, when it comes to, hmm, being poor? Being in a failing school? Dying at higher rates of chronic diseases? Being more likely to be the victim of a crime? Being more likely to go to prison? being more likely to die if convicted of a murder?

Ah, so let's give affluent and middle class members of "underpriveleged" racial groups access to benefits they don't need, denying benefits to poor members of "privileged" racial groups and diluting benefits to those INDIVIDUALS in the statistically "underprivileged" groups.

No, let's not bother looking at individuals, communities, and specific root causes of the problems, because then, people with actual talent might start to solve them. Let's stick with that failed approach of quotas.

quote: Yes, the answer to all of those is yes. Now, for most 9save the DP one), one could argue that it is being poor that matters. Fine, but since eing black means that statisticaly you are more likely to be poor, obviosuly this remains an important statistic to have when figuring out policy..too bad blind ideology (Ohh lord, god help us if several thousand whiute and asian kids don;t get into their top pick!! The horror, the horror!!!) serves some people better.

So because they're "white" or "Asian" they should individually be punished to satisfy your sense of racial justice? At least you admit that your position is rife with bigotry, or is it only bigotry when whitey directs it towards darkie, but it's "fairness" when it goes in reverse?

Let's put some lower performing non-white, non-Asian kids in place of them, and not bother with solving the issue of why those kids are lower performing. And we don't need to worry about them graduating lower in their class then the silver-spoon-in-hand whiteys and bananas, because we'll just force employers to hire and promote them on a quota basis too! That'll solve things.

quote: NOw, some of you seemt o think 4 decades already wiped oiut the effects of a couple of centuries of slavery and a century of Jim Crow. Personally, the numbers I see don;t validate that rosy self-characterization.

Hey Dood. I know reading comprehension isn't your strong point, but this is a CALIFORNIA initiative. California never had slavery, and it never had Jim Crow, except for the Anti-Chinese laws and the later anti-Asian immigration laws, etc. But those bananas are like whitey now, so they need to be held back in the name of affirmative action. If you think someone born here in the 1950's or later is suffering from the "effects of a couple of centuries of slavery and a century of Jim Crow" then maybe the reason you people haven't solved any of these problems is the perception-altering drugs you're doing

quote: {erhaps what was said about the Germans, Jews and the holocaust must be said here: Whites will never forgive blacks for slavery and Jim crow, making whites feel guilty like that.

Thanks for admitting that the basis of your position is racism, bigotry, and intolerance based on your stereotypes.

	02-09-2003 09:00									#30
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever To ignore it doesn't make it go away, how can gathering less information be a good thing?

If the imprecise information you stop gathering cripples a failed set of programs, then you have to start looking deeper for real information and real solutions.