04-09-2003 06:47									#31
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I agree we should concentrate on pikes and fast movers. Infantry are not going to get a lot done for us from here on out, and we rapidly approach the time that their day is past (Musket).

	04-09-2003 06:55									#32
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The only problem is that some MIs could deliver that extra punch. If gold would not be a problem, I would prefer 2 MIs over a pike. And my (somewhat educated) guess is that gold won't be the problem, movement times will be. In which case a couple of warriors from former Voxia sounds like a couple of more units which we can afford to lose against hordes of riders.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 06:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I agree on more GoW riders, however it's one of those risks we will have to take. I'm more worried at RP's defenses right now, we should try to do something about that. Otherwise, the whole diversion we're setting up in the South isn't going to work anyway... RP needs to defend while we build up forces for an invasion. what about moving some pikes towards P3, hoping for P2 next turn? it would make it possible to attack Sala if necessary, pillage the road in 3 turns, and have a half decent attempt at recapturing P should it fall. ND can only defend it with Ansars the first turn... might create an opening for us if we need it. DeepO

ND and GoW have a fortified RP with 30+ units in a city, or they have pikes and knights advancing over open ground...

What would you target?

ND has the road link into the south. GoW matters little, aside from the initial 11 riders.

	04-09-2003 07:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO The only problem is that some MIs could deliver that extra punch. If gold would not be a problem, I would prefer 2 MIs over a pike. And my (somewhat educated) guess is that gold won't be the problem, movement times will be. In which case a couple of warriors from former Voxia sounds like a couple of more units which we can afford to lose against hordes of riders. DeepO

Agreed. A few warriors, but not hordes. We already have 1, btw. Moving back to jump a boat 'home' from Toledo.

	04-09-2003 07:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither ND and GoW have a fortified RP with 30+ units in a city, or they have pikes and knights advancing over open ground... What would you target?

In this situation? I would make a serious effort in getting both our teams to attack P in full force. GS in the South is not the problem for them, they can slow us down by pillaging roads. Plus, once RP is gone, GS has nothing more to seek on Bob. The real issue for them is to get RP's production down asap, even if that means they will lose 75% of their army in doing so.

Also, they don't know how many units are in P... if they wouldn't have seen most of the cats, they would have attacked long ago.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 07:09									#36
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Could that Toledo warrior jump a boat towards Witlich instead? It will make his journey faster...

DeepO

	04-09-2003 07:12									#37
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last question, nye: could you check hom much it would cost us to get invention (i.e. how many civs already have the tech), and if Lego and/or Vox already have printing press? I wonder why Lego said they were a democracy, that shouldn't be possible now, right?

DeepO

	04-09-2003 07:21									#38
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okay, I'm gone... it's way past my bed time already

DeepO

	04-09-2003 07:44									#39
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re the 4k reserve. I am fairly positive that ND and at least Aggie of GoW are going to be smart enough to realise that as goes GS's army in Spain, so goes Spain. I am positive that they will be more concerned with the 16 units plus cats that are vulnerable than the pike or 2 RP can build in the next 4 or 6 turns.

Furthermore, if there is to be a clash of armies, let's tip the odds in our favour by having something to come back at them with...

re the warrior. Yes, he can jump a boat going north. That would be better.

re techs and intel. yes I can do that once I am done with the turn. btw... it would be good if some others help keep an eye on intel. Playing these things is exhausting, tbh. It would be good to spread some of the effort, and accomplishment, around. I can tell you one thing for sure... this team would get it's clock cleaned by the ISDG team if it were decided by non player effort to gain intel which can make or break decisions.

re your last message... G'night. Thanks for tuning in and helping out.

	04-09-2003 08:12									#40
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Diplomacy:
RP replied to our offer of Toledo and WM with WM, unaccepted. Cleared table


Unit Movement and Actions:
mi 4 of Tole attacks ND pike at 9. Won, 2 pips lost
mi 6 6 3 of Tole attacks Mycenian camp at 3. Won, no damage
p 6 9 of Tole fortifies
p 9 9 of Tole moves 7
pe 8 of Tole moves 3
mi 9 of Tole fortifies
gr 1 1 [k, p] of Whir moves 4 4 4 4
gr fm Siro moves 6, pause
k fm gr transfers to gr
p fm gr transfers to gr
gr 6 of Siro [k, p] moves 4. Unload all. Move 6 6
gr 6 6 6 of Siro [2k] moves 4 4 4. Unload all. Move 6
g 6 6 of Siro moves 6 6 6, pause
k 2 of Whir loads on g
k fm Temp moves 4 4. Loads on g
g 1 1 of Whir [2k] moves 4
p 6 6 6 3 of Barca [p, w] moves 7 7 7 7
p fm g 2 of Siro unloads into Siro
wo fm g 2 of Siro unloads into Siro
g 2 2 1 of Barca moves 2 1 1 6 > this one will maintain a watch for ND galleys and GoW riders in the deep South. Probably joined by another vet
5gr 2 2 1 of Barca move 9 9 9 9
p 7 of EotS moves 8 8 4
p fm Mons moves 2 2 1
wa 2 3 of Tole moves 2 2
ge 8 7 of Witt moves 7 8 3 2
g 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 moves 8 7 7 6
g 1 1 1 1 of Witt moves 9 9 9 9
3k fm MilT fortify
p 1 of MilT moves 1 1. Fortifies
k 6 9 of Pamp moves 4 4 6 6. Fortifies
se [renamed 'worker'] 8 7 of Barca moves 2 1 4 >> Be very careful about this unit, Shiber
8c 7 of Barca move 1 4
7p 4 of Barca move 4
mi 8 of Valen moves 8 8
p 8 of Valen moves 8 8
8k 8 8 of Valen move 8. Fortify all
4mi 8 of Valen move 8. Fortify
4p 8 of Valen move 8. Fortify
mir 8 7 of Barca moves 2. Fortifies
3k fom Siro move 1 1 1 1. Fortify
p fm Siro moves 4 7 8
3mi 1 of MilT move 9 8. Fortify
wc 7 of Inof pillages road. Moves 4
wce 2 1 of Diss pillages road and mine. Moves 2
c 4 of Aras moves 1 1 1 (moved after shot taken)


Production:
EotS on ki change to sp (after shots taken; almost a big oops)
Witt on pi change to wa
MilT on ca change to wa
Hurr on kn
Cycl on wo change to se
Bold on kn change to ho
Diss on granery
Elip on kn change to ho
Temp on kn change to sp
Torn on mi
Typh on pi
Aras on kn
Sufa on pi change to ho
Sand on pi change to sp
HarH on pi change to sp
Tole Nevermind
Mons on pi change to sp
OliG on pi change to wc
BbtS on pi change to sp
Whir on pi change to wc
Siro on ca
Inof on CrtHouse
Inon on pi change to sp
Bliz on pi change to ho
WofC on pi change to ho
SAna on ca change to sp
TheV on pi change to sp

Upgrades in production:
sp x 9
ho x 5
wc x 2
wa x 2

Work Force:
Hurr off 6, 9 9; onto 4 7, 8
Diss off 6; onto 3
Temp off 4 7; onto 9
Aras off 2, 7 7; onto 8 9, 9 9
Sand off 2; onto 6
Mons off 4; onto 3
TheV off 4 1; onto 9

Workers:
W fm Cycl moves 8 8 8
W 1 1 of Inof mines
w 7 of NewM moves 8 8
w 7 of BbtS moves 9 8
w 7 of HarH moves 8 9
2w 8 7 of Barca move 2 1 4
w 8 7 of Barca moves 6 8 7
2w 2 1 of Diss mine


Diplomacy:
Offer Toledo and WM to RP, accepted.

	04-09-2003 10:02									#42
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nye, I can expend more efforts during the weekends... please let me know of any tasks you would like me to take on.

	04-09-2003 10:14									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

Examining saves for Intel would help a great deal. Where are our competitors in spt and cpt?

re tech...

Astronomy and Invention are out there. At 48 bpt they are:

Invention 18t (should be 22)
Astronomy 26t (should be 28)
Banking 26t. ok
PPress18t. ok

	04-09-2003 11:39									#44
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I can do the intel during weekdays, if Theseus can take weekends.

	04-09-2003 14:30									#45
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither re the 4k reserve. I am fairly positive that ND and at least Aggie of GoW are going to be smart enough to realise that as goes GS's army in Spain, so goes Spain. I am positive that they will be more concerned with the 16 units plus cats that are vulnerable than the pike or 2 RP can build in the next 4 or 6 turns.

hmmm... of course you're right that when we're gone, RP is gone. However, they have no way of knowing just how many units we're shipping over, while RP has a limited number of troops to deal with. My point was that if either of the two nations would be gone, the other would hae a serious hard time, and just like we plan to do with GoW, it would make sense for them to go after the smaller one first. It's not a matter of the smartest decision, it's more one of opportunity: both ND and GoW can hiit P now, while ND is in no position to deal with us, and thus GoW would be alone against superior numbers. after P would be gone, it's relatively easy for ND to join the fight against us.

I'm not saying that my plan woud be the best, but I see a big chance of them doing it like that. It certainly is something we need to keep into account. I hope they will do otherwise, though...

quote: Furthermore, if there is to be a clash of armies, let's tip the odds in our favour by having something to come back at them with...

Yes please... but knights at P2 could also threaten Sala. They would not be hidden though, which is a serious disadvantage.

quote: re techs and intel. yes I can do that once I am done with the turn. btw... it would be good if some others help keep an eye on intel. Playing these things is exhausting, tbh. It would be good to spread some of the effort, and accomplishment, around. I can tell you one thing for sure... this team would get it's clock cleaned by the ISDG team if it were decided by non player effort to gain intel which can make or break decisions.

I agree... maybe it's time for me to find myself the latest patch, and do my share of the burden. However, I've got little time already, and fear that I won't be in any position to do it at regular basis, or have to stop after a few weeks before doing much good. But we might need a more planned approach to intel gathering, right now it's quite chaotic.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 14:38									#46
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One comment on the build orders: we might need Sandstorm back in growth mode, if we can. I see us needing quite a few more settlers the coming 15 turns, not only for RP, but also for our invasion we're going to need at least one. Cyclone is not really an option: our next settler could barely reach Wittlich, any one after that would be too late for our first wave. And D-ville won't be ready for quite some time to come.

DeepO

	05-09-2003 00:02									#47
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EotS grows this turn, then the fp's can be shuffled back for SS to grow.

re the armies and disposition of reserves...

All of ND's 11 ansars at Pamp 4 4 can make it into the south and be very near us in one turn. They can make it to the gates of our proposed fortress at Barca 4 4 4 4

	05-09-2003 02:14									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It seems clear what their game is (Gow, in the southern portion of Spain)....as we approach the cities to recapture, they'll burn them and retreat. To that end, we either need to be able to hit two at once (to maybe save one), or simply pull up here and wait for a settler to rebuild, thus slowly extending our lines (and our borders, which limits their options to move freely in the south).

The danger with hitting two at once is that our force is spread to thin to support each other, and we'll get pasted, so in this case, at least in the south, I prefer a slow, measured response, slowly expanding and pushing those borders out for Spain, with our troops cresting that wave to kill anything that approaches the cities.

Let them play. Let them think that they're "tying up a large percentage of our force" by trying to chase them thru the south.

The end result will be that we slowly rebuild cities for Spain, while buying time to get the real attack force ready to flatten GoW.

I propose we don't do anything in particular provacative toward ND at this time.

Let them stew in it, and let them wonder. Focus on GoW first. Crush them like a beercan, split the cities with Spain, and then both we and a newly strengthened Spain can tango with ND.

-=Vel=-

	05-09-2003 02:21									#49
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See...the thing is...GoW has their game down. They're planning on hit and run tactics with their superior movement.

So...we should play General Sherman to their Lee. We become the meatgrinder...not getting distracted, not chasing after them, but bulding up an irresistable WALL of freaking troops that they'll either have no choice but to hurl themselves at, or simply get washed away.

The south is a diversion, so let us not be diverted ourselves....hold up here and wait for a settler, then we have something to defend, and that was the goal all along.

-=Vel=-

	05-09-2003 04:17									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

I am not so sure I agree, Vel...

I also want to keep GoW using up their movement, and using up the their units.

I also want to draw ND down in a south to east arc, if possible, same logic.

Pushing a wall and Settlers forward is fine, but we should concurrently be setting out enough bait to draw them out.

	05-09-2003 16:51									#51
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Until we have some real settlements to defend, there's no reason why we shouldn't keep our small diversion in the south going- it has some concrete strategic importance as well- Merida (or was it another town?), if I'm not mistaken, nets GoW and ND another lux, which they probably need badly, and its also one of the main reasons their in this war. If we take it from them, their down one lux, and pushed further into the walls of Sal.

If we take back what they gained, we might drive them into an assault against Pamplona, out of frustration, maybe.

	05-09-2003 17:07									#52
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Don't know...I'm just looking at it like this:

How many of GoW's guys did we kill after they sacked V, and was that number worth the loss of the city?

If not, and we rinse and repeat that same cycle...it sorta feels like we're shooting ourselves in the foot, trying to catch 3-move guys with 1-move guys....an uphill battle, to say the least.

On the other hand, a settler plopped down to rebuild V would be dangling a HUGE bait in front of them, cos they'd see further signs of a re-strengthening Spain....rinse and repeat THAT, and they'd have no choice but an attack on our terms....

-=Vel=-

	05-09-2003 18:22									#53
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Vel is right.
Rebuilding Spain in front of their eyes is exactly the kind of thing that will boil the blood of the hotheads. We have to make them angry in order to make them throw ration away, like they did when they declared that they'd lose just to see us not win.

	05-09-2003 20:05									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Astronomy and Invention are out there. At 48 bpt they are: Invention 18t (should be 22) Astronomy 26t (should be 28) Banking 26t. ok PPress18t. ok

Can we estimate when GoW (or ND) would get gunpowder running at 100% science? I think we have to hit them in their homeland before they can get muskets, otherwise...

	05-09-2003 20:36									#55
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True, but there is a window....even AFTER they get the tech for muskets, if they're pushing hard to build cheap guys and upgrade to their UU's, they're not going to have the cash needed for a mass round of defensive upgrades...as it stands now, I believe (firmly) that their money is being spent offensively....I do not think they understand that we are gearing up for an offensive....rather, they think we're content to simply hold the line....which is another reason I'm in support of rebuilding V and holding...it reinforces that image....

-=Vel=-

	05-09-2003 20:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx True, but there is a window....even AFTER they get the tech for muskets, if they're pushing hard to build cheap guys and upgrade to their UU's, they're not going to have the cash needed for a mass round of defensive upgrades...as it stands now, I believe (firmly) that their money is being spent offensively....I do not think they understand that we are gearing up for an offensive....rather, they think we're content to simply hold the line....which is another reason I'm in support of rebuilding V and holding...it reinforces that image.... -=Vel=-

Good points.

I think that they have lots of money, though they will spend it almost entirely offensively. They really don't need to upgrade the pikes until we land, but when we land, boom, all can be upgraded. Lucky for us, Nd can't get them a large infusion of cash after we land.

ND probably isn't researching anything at all now (or GoW depending on who is getting gunpowder) So I would think they would have loads of money. Esp if they are hording up for when they get leo's in imperial city (probably only a handful of turns away) Like the doctor said when I was born, its gonna get ugly.