01-09-2003 12:20									#1
	Turn 139, 210AD Suffering from ads?

One of these years it will switch to 10 years per turn...

And I can edit thread titles.

* General Info
- 869 gold, +175 (at start of turn)

* Military
-

* Economy

- Move Sandstorm laborer from fur to mountain. Can switch production to a spear or WC and finish in one turn.
- ***Move Hurricane's laborers inland to a mountain and the fur Sandstorm vacated. Should be at net 20 shields. We'll drop back to net 18 next turn, finishing our knight.
- We can still get our four-turn (three turns left) knight from Arashi. Move the laborer from the mined grassland to a mountain. Also move a mountain laborer from a tile that overlaps Tempest to one that doesn't.
- ***Move the Monsoon laborer currently on coast onto the mined grassland. Our goal is 8+5+7=20 shjields for a 3-turn WC or spear (letting Whirlwind's upcoming new laborer borrow a hill for a turn once he arrives).
- Move Tempest laborer from desert to mountain. Tempest can build a spear/WC per turn.
- Dissidentville needs to be working the bonus grassland at D3, not a regular grassland.
- May want to switch Inchoff to a spear or WC. I hate to give up/postpone the long-term advantages of a courthouse, but if we're in emergency production mode, we probably should.

* Diplomacy
-

* Additional info
Big issues.

Does Toledo stay with RP?

Iron cut this turn.

Landing at Valencia underway.

What do we want to do with Elipolis? Things aren't looking great for us to get a useful FP on Bob in the near future, meaning that moving our FP to Elipolis could be quite valuable (and in which case we probably want to add workers in the not-too-distant future to boost its production rate). But if we want to give up or postpone a FP move there, moving a worker to a hill could finish a horseman next turn, or it could finish one in two turns without the move. My current feeling is that we're probably better off prioritizing a FP move there, but the issue is worth considering. - Nathan


Really big issue: It is decided that we will declare war to take Valencia from a neutral if it is gifted to them? Speak now, or hold you peace.

Other big issue. How are we going to pay the gold for the upgrades? Can we out build our gold?

Last edited by nbarclay on 02-09-2003 at 18:04

	02-09-2003 18:08									#2
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Turns are twenty years at least through 250 AD. I think they switch right after that, but I'm not positive. I have the tile changes to tweak production edited in. I may or may not poke my nose back in here this evening.

	02-09-2003 19:23									#3
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Hurray!
I'm opening the save.

	02-09-2003 19:31									#4
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Murcia-99 is roadless. We can move all our units (slowmovers and fastmovers alike) into that tile, but I suggest that we take the forest at Murcia-998. That puts us as close to Murcia in terms of turns until we can attack, and also threatens (sorta) Essigbar, so if GoW abandons Murcia next turn we can go for Essigbar instead.

	02-09-2003 19:33									#5
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GoW and/or ND are getting Ivory through Merida (Damn!). I have a feeling that GoW will want to make a stand there.

	02-09-2003 19:35									#6
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Btw, we are back to 1st place in Mfg. goods.

	02-09-2003 19:36									#7
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Two civs are very close behind us in Mfg. Goods - I assume that these are GoW and ND.

	03-09-2003 05:58									#8
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If I play this turn, I need to do it in the next 4 hours.

Are the generals around?

	03-09-2003 06:11									#9
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The choice...

Send 5p and 5mi by road or boat towards Murcia. Could be supported by 8k. or...

7p+, 5mi+, 9k, 8c towards Alamo-Merida. A part of the 5p-5mi force from Valencia would block our flank on the wooded hill at V 8 8. Part of it would join the force going to Merida-Alamo.

We have the whole force land in the broken road tile 4 4 of Barca this turn, along with a settler and 2 workers. Next turn the road is repaired, we advance 4 4, pop our fortress, and prepare to receive attack, or launch on the next turn.

	03-09-2003 06:30									#10
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Intel: GoW still lacks iron, which seems strange since they moved a spear off the hill near PI this turn and replaced it with a pike. There is an unfortified pike in PI. Most likely the spear after moving/upgrading? If so, they are oscillating in/out of war rapidly.

Other info:
We still have Toledo. RP declined it last turn due to having nothing ready to garrison it. They have moved a pike to be able to accept it this turn. The ND pike is a bold one. It has advanced adjacent to Toledo, and next to 2 of our MIs (the elite pike move last turn was done to force them there if they wanted to persist). It's dyin' time!

As mentioned above, GoW now has a vet pike 3 of Port Isolation.

	03-09-2003 08:13									#11
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Where is everybody? No posts by anyone other than me since Shiber's 13 hours ago.

	03-09-2003 10:33									#12
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I am not going to be able to finish this turn this evening.

I can do it tomorrow after work.

	03-09-2003 11:51									#13
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I was in bed.
I'm no general, but here are my suggestions:

Toledo: charge with our medinfs. If all goes wrong and both medinfs fail, move the pike from T-8 into Toledo. When RP takes the city our pike will be teleported back home, but at least RP will be able to hold the town with their own pike.

If I read the map correctly, we can put ourself in a position (Barcelona-444) where we can attack either Alamo or Murcia with the fastmovers and then cover the wounded with slowmovers, and not be seen by GoW unless they have any scouts roaming by. I'd like to try that.

Btw, GoW set up Resolute 778 of PoI (on hills). If we land knights on PoI-78, we can take both towns in a single turn if we have enough units.

	03-09-2003 14:33									#14
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at 5 am I'm in bed too

little to say about it (I'll check the screenies after work, it's kind of hectic here for my last day before going on holiday), but I strongly feel that we should get those boats back towards PoI, we're going to need them if we want to invade GoW.

DeepO

	03-09-2003 14:52									#15
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I have nothing to look at- but I agree with what DeepO said. Despite ND being the major threat, I still think GoW should be attacked, because its more liekly that they won't be helped directly by ND, while from looking at the map, it makes sense for GoW to help ND if they're in trouble. If we strike at GoW successfully, we can continue to ND from two opposite directions, while starting from ND means fighting up hill, with one front only, and it will also take some time before we hurt the enemy's production core.

There's also Leo's, which will probably be in GoW's hands.

That's why I think we should start massing troops, and galleys up north. I also think we should completely ignore (or just feint at) PoI, and send our galleys straight to their core, we have to force them to use their riders for defending, and this can only be done if we attack at someplace they need to defend badly.

	03-09-2003 19:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The choice... Send 5p and 5mi by road or boat towards Murcia. Could be supported by 8k. or... 7p+, 5mi+, 9k, 8c towards Alamo-Merida. A part of the 5p-5mi force from Valencia would block our flank on the wooded hill at V 8 8. Part of it would join the force going to Merida-Alamo. We have the whole force land in the broken road tile 4 4 of Barca this turn, along with a settler and 2 workers. Next turn the road is repaired, we advance 4 4, pop our fortress, and prepare to receive attack, or launch on the next turn.

Sorry I haven't been around. Monday was just a debacle for me. A few short words: went to the US Open on a Bus trip. It wasn't through our company, so no one knew us. It rained pretty much all day. We were there from 10am - just before 7pm, and saw a grand total of 40 minutes of tennis. Upon arrival, the bus driver stated, in no uncertain terms, that we would be staying until the end of the day session, no matter how late that was. Well, at 6:40pm, when my gf and I got back out to the parking lot, guess what? No bus. They ****ing left us. Apparently, the Pratt & Whitney people got back on the bus and demanded to go home, and told the bus driver that everyone was accounted for. No head count was taken. So we took the subway to Grand Central and Metro North to Fairfield, where my Dad came and picked us up. I then had to borrow my mother's car and drive home through the monsoon. Got home at 11pm. Took a half day yesterday and napped through the afternoon. Man, that sucked.

Ok, venting over, now to the matter at hand:

So you want to put 7 pikemen, 5 med infs, 9 knights, 8 catapults, 2 workers and a settler 4-4 of Barcelona this turn? *ponders* Pikes on open ground = 3.3 versus the 4 attack of Riders/Ansars. We do have the cats, though. So they *could* attack that stack, and probably could chew through the pikes. But then we have knights too. Ok, since the workers allow us to rebuild the road and thus reverse course with that stack if necessary. Do it.

Oh yeah, and kill that one pikeman up by Toledo with our Med infs.

-Arrian

	03-09-2003 22:41									#17
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I agree, go with the land attack, and prep for a Galley invasion targeting the GoW heartland (but make'em use up their movement advantage.

[Arrian, that Open trip SUCKED... next time gimme a call]

	03-09-2003 23:25									#18
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Heh. I'm just glad the subway got us to Grand Central in time to catch the 8:07 (we got on at 8:05!). If not, I would have had to wait until 9:07.

I've been to the Open as a kid, and had a blast. This weather is just ridiculous... and NEVER AGAIN will I take a bus trip. This is the 3rd time we've had problems (the other two were bus trips through Travelers to Yanks-Sox games).

I don't actually have your number. I know you gave it out in one of the threads, but I never wrote it down or plugged it into my cell.

But really, what would you have done? Driven me all the way home to CT? Nah, man, the train worked fine. Except for the drunk guy who insisted that I looked like John Lennon (because of the glasses, I guess?) and then decided to sing me a couple of his songs for good measure. Never a dull moment, eh?

-Arrian

	04-09-2003 04:54									#19
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OK. Looks like we take the northern fork. Will be moving shortly.

	04-09-2003 05:26									#20
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ND pike is dead. 2 pips damage taken.

barb camp taken. No damage.

	04-09-2003 05:52									#21
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Would like to deploy like so...

4p, 4mi at Valen 8 8

2w, 1 se (renamed 'worker'), 1 mi, 8p, 8k, 8c at Barca 4 4

6mi (2v, 4r) kept in reserve (hidden) at Barca 7

4k in reserve at NewM 1

	04-09-2003 06:03									#22
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sounds good, nye. so we're going for Salamanca then? Is it known if any more roads towards it are pillaged? And what is the plan next turn, leave forces in the open in the hope GoW attacks, or cover as much as possible on hills? If possible, I wouldn't speed along too much, however we might need to force GoW to attack Pamplona before they can get reinforcements from the North. Doing the fork probably has that effect: either they attack us, or they attack RP.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 06:05									#23
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Mayhaps that k reserve is too far away. Maybe it would be better to park them at Barca 7 as well.

If they engage Pamp this turn, we will just have to make the best of it.

	04-09-2003 06:09									#24
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Whoa. k from Pamp 9 6 moves 4 4 to scout.

ND on mountain 4 4 of Pamp:
ansars 11vet
pike 1e, 3vet, 1r
mi 1vet, 1r

	04-09-2003 06:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO sounds good, nye. so we're going for Salamanca then? Is it known if any more roads towards it are pillaged? And what is the plan next turn, leave forces in the open in the hope GoW attacks, or cover as much as possible on hills? If possible, I wouldn't speed along too much, however we might need to force GoW to attack Pamplona before they can get reinforcements from the North. Doing the fork probably has that effect: either they attack us, or they attack RP. DeepO

Or, blitz Merida to eliminate the ivory first, then Salamanca.

Of course, we may draw considerable forces away from Pamplona.

	04-09-2003 06:23									#26
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DeepO, if you are still around, have a look at this and tell me what you think.

Production:
EotS on ki (12sh, 12/13pt) change to wc. This wastes shields, but the rushes cost more gold than the difference in upg costs. Finish a WC next turn, then 2 turn horse.
Witt on pi (6sh, 1pt) change to?
MilT on cat (11sh, 1pt) change to?
Hurr on kn in 2. Stay on it
Cycl on wor in 2. Change to settlers, or stay on workers for pop transplant?
Bold on kn (10sh, 10pt) change to spear?
Diss on granery (31sh, 3spt +chop). Stay on it
Elip on kn (27sh, 2pt) change to horse
Temp on kn (0sh, 21pt) change to wc or sp (or just finish a kni in 4)
Torn on mi (30sh, 10pt) finish it, then change to wc or sp
Typh on pi in 1, finish it, then change to 7spt and sp
Aras on kn in 3, stay on it
Sufa on pi (14sh, 4pt) change to 6spt next turn and finish pi or horse in 3, then ?
Sand on pi (15sh, 5pt) change to spear?
HarH on pi (13sh, 1pt) change to ?
Tole Nevermind
Mons on pi (osh, 8pt) change to sp or horse?
OliG on pi (0sh, 6pt) change to sp or wc (Sh 6 4 4 6)
BbtS on pi (13sh, 1pt) Change to ?
Whir on pi (4sh, 4pt) change to?
Siro on cat (8sh, 1pt)
Inof on CH (17sh, 2pt). I don't think we need that many drags on our gold. I think one city on CH can be spared. We have one more turn to decide before wasting any shields.
Inon on pi (13sh, 2pt) change to ?
Bliz on pi (20sh, 5pt) change to horse
WofC on pi (23sh, 2pt) change to horse
SAna on cat (16sh, 2pt) change to sp
TheV on pi (12sh, 1pt) change to?

	04-09-2003 06:24									#27
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we knew already what ND had brought over, no?

One thing: is it realistic for us to pillage the road at Salamanca 6 fast (i.e. in 2 turns at most)? Right now, GoW can use that road, and attack P starting in Sala. If we could prevent that, they have to either end at the forest or a mountain (making it visible when they're going to attack), or start from the flats.

Also, we maybe should start to get some forces ready to take back P if necessary. If ND is going to move more units down, ultimately RP can't hold, even if we remove the GoW threat. I hate to use the 4k reserve for that, but we have little choice... as long as we can keep it in reach of Toledo, it's okay. And in order to do that, we need to scout T even further.

nye, there is still a galley present to move over some forces, right? we might need to ship a couple of knights and pikes over the coming turn. If we keep 2 galleys around for ferry service, we could at least have minimal reinforcements, which won't hurt our invasion plans too much. In time, we could build a couple more galleys in the South to complement that.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 06:38									#28
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2k on the way, 2p, and 2c following closely.

I was thinking of moving the 4k reserve up closer to the main force. They would be out of range of Pamp, but... ND has a road link into the South. There could be more waiting for us than 11 GoW riders.

	04-09-2003 06:40									#29
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Production:
EotS on ki (12sh, 12/13pt) change to wc. This wastes shields, but the rushes cost more gold than the difference in upg costs. Finish a WC next turn, then 2 turn horse.

or go for a spear. We could still move that towards W in time, and we will have WCs enough anyway. I agree on not doing a horse.

Witt on pi (6sh, 1pt) change to?

warrior.

MilT on cat (11sh, 1pt) change to?

hmmm... warrior, or stay on cat, preparing to rush later. In order to get more units, we should probably go for a warrior and rush the last part of one later, from Miller they can easily reach our port.

Hurr on kn in 2. Stay on it

certainly.

Cycl on wor in 2. Change to settlers, or stay on workers for pop transplant?

seeing as GoW is going to raze everything in sight, probably go for settlers to build new RP cities.

Bold on kn (10sh, 10pt) change to spear?

I prefer a horse, but a spear could work too. It will take 10 turns to get it upgraded and moved North, so it won't make the first wave, though.

Diss on granery (31sh, 3spt +chop). Stay on it

certainly. we need growth

Elip on kn (27sh, 2pt) change to horse

rush?

Temp on kn (0sh, 21pt) change to wc or sp (or just finish a kni in 4)

wc's, please. but maybe a spear to start, it can reach Wit in time

Torn on mi (30sh, 10pt) finish it, then change to wc or sp

wcs later on

Typh on pi in 1, finish it, then change to 7spt and sp

the same problem: spears won't reach in Wit in time. wcs please

Aras on kn in 3, stay on it

true

Sufa on pi (14sh, 4pt) change to 6spt next turn and finish pi or horse in 3, then ?

horse

Sand on pi (15sh, 5pt) change to spear?

yes

HarH on pi (13sh, 1pt) change to ?

either spear, or go for 2 warriors, losing a couple of shields, and needing a couple more to finish.

Tole Nevermind
Mons on pi (osh, 8pt) change to sp or horse?
sp first, horse later

OliG on pi (0sh, 6pt) change to sp or wc (Sh 6 4 4 6)
wc

BbtS on pi (13sh, 1pt) Change to ?
sp

Whir on pi (4sh, 4pt) change to?
wc

Siro on cat (8sh, 1pt)
Inof on CH (17sh, 2pt). I don't think we need that many drags on our gold. I think one city on CH can be spared. We have one more turn to decide before wasting any shields.

I would prefer a spear, but it depends on if it can grow, and become somewhat productive.

Inon on pi (13sh, 2pt) change to ?
sp

Bliz on pi (20sh, 5pt) change to horse
WofC on pi (23sh, 2pt) change to horse
SAna on cat (16sh, 2pt) change to sp
TheV on pi (12sh, 1pt) change to?
either pike, or 2 warriors.

In all, I would go for a few warriors, but not too many. They cost us a lot of gold to upgrade in comparison to horses.

Also, we need to start looking at an eta for the invasion, it looks to me that we're going to need at least 9 turns from now, possibly up to 11. if we settle on 11, we could build a couple of slowmovers in the South first. But I guess that even with 11 turns, most of our forces are going to be fastmovers for the simple reason that we can't move them in time... gold won't be our biggest problem.

DeepO

	04-09-2003 06:44									#30
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I agree on more GoW riders, however it's one of those risks we will have to take. I'm more worried at RP's defenses right now, we should try to do something about that. Otherwise, the whole diversion we're setting up in the South isn't going to work anyway... RP needs to defend while we build up forces for an invasion.

what about moving some pikes towards P3, hoping for P2 next turn? it would make it possible to attack Sala if necessary, pillage the road in 3 turns, and have a half decent attempt at recapturing P should it fall. ND can only defend it with Ansars the first turn... might create an opening for us if we need it.

DeepO