01-09-2003 22:29									#1
	What to do with our Gold? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

While the MoI and others are frantically testing things out to get the best use out of our Shields (not so easy, considering the upcoming GA), I thought I would start a thread on what to do with our Gold. As you all certainly know, the two are intimately related...

We have some options:

1. Upgrade units we already have.

This is currently being done and I doubt anyone has any objection to this.

2. Investigate GCA cities in order to gain valuable intel for the war.

I personally think this is a bad use of our Gold. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to investigate one city that we suspect may be tough to crack, but spending over 100 Gold to investigate a bunch of cities is wasteful. What wins battles in Civ3 is units, let's not kid ourselves that because we're playing against humans this suddenly becomes untrue.

3. Begin researching again.

Not wise, because our #1 priority right now is taking out GCA. I know this last statement is obvious, but it's important to say it once in a while.

4. Save some for possible dealings with GWT and other off-continent civs.

This is a tough one to form an opinion on, since we have so little info at this time. We could stand to profit heavily from being a trading partner with the civs on the other continent(s). Then again, our #1 priority is taking care of GCA ASAP (did I mention that?).

5. Upgrade Warriors we build by disconnecting our Iron.

A new idea (I think). Like I said, we need units, and the most efficient way to get units in Civ3 is to upgrade to them. It does not matter that we are currently strapped for cash, upgrading units is just more efficient! With 10spt cities we can effectively "build" a Horsemen and a Medieval Infantry every 4 turns. Not half bad.

---

Let's work with #5.

First, it is surely annoying to disconnect our Iron at this time. There are many plans that depend on using it, and it's not like we can spare the Workers. However, none of these plans directly support the war effort, while upgrading Warriors clearly does. Thus I think the benefits of disconnecting the Iron are worth the costs.

Second, where do we get all this Gold. It costs (IIRC) 60 Gold to upgrade a Warrior to a Medieval Infantry. We can currently output somewhere around 30gpt. At this rate we would be producing more Warriors per turn than we would have Gold to upgrade them. Our GA will hardly help with this, since it increases Shield output as well as Commerce. My suggestion therefore is this: work on a deal with CFC whereby they funnel a large amount of their gpt to us (or just give us lump sums). How exactly we do this (is it a straight loan, or are we promising something else?) is up to the FAM. But overall I believe CFC will be willing to let us fight the war against GCA for them, while they lick their wounds. As CFC gets weaker and weaker, we need them less and less, and so getting them on board with us should be an interesting venture for them (and us, of course!).

Further thoughts appreciated.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 01-09-2003 at 22:35

	01-09-2003 22:38									#2
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We don't need the Iron connected to built NM's either...

If we are going to do this, we should do it ASAP, build a bunch of warriors and then reconnect the Iron. This will give Trip his AGC core group and we can have the cities build things like the NMs and Horses while we are upgrading the others.

I would like to have the workers on the Iron that same turn that it is discinnected, so that we don;t lose the worker moves, so If the workers haven;t been moved yet, tne we need to move horse and squid ther first.

E_T

	01-09-2003 22:41									#3
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Squid?

What about short rushes?

	01-09-2003 22:46									#4
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Squid & Horse are 2 workers that are in travel range to that Iron deposit, they can move to the iron this turn, we can disconnect teh iron this turn (i,e, raze the improvement which will also kill the mine), then have them immediately start rebuilding the mine and afterwards, the road.

The timing for this is as perfect as we can get, IMHO. Let's do it.

MoI E_T

	01-09-2003 23:09									#5
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We also have to have some gold to start researching later. A lot of gold.

	02-09-2003 00:31									#6
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Trip has a good point. Post-republic, any gold we save now can effectively be turned into research later by running a negative gpt.

I think cutting the iron would be a better use of gold right now, however. The more troops the better, and upgrading is insanely efficient.

	04-09-2003 17:55									#7
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An interesting idea, and one that I was going to play Devil's advocate to, but then I checked out our cities. Three of them are doing 10-11 spt, so they are ideal for a Warrior per turn each for several turns with very little resource loss. If we did this for 3 turns, that's 9 more MIs we would have, but we would have them upgraded in 10 turns at our current gold rate, assuming no more gold from barbs or GWT/CFC trades. This is getting to the point where we have too little gold.

OTOH, perhaps it would be best if we had those 10/11spt cities building NMs whilst the smaller cities built Warriors. Then we would not have the problem of gold demand for upgrades exceeding supply so much, but Warriors would be Regulars in all but Incensity, itself a city of 8spt, where we would waste many shields.

This idea could work for 2 turns in the major 10/11spt cities, but more than this and we would have near useless Warriors kicking around for too long (although we would be able to upgrade them shortly into our GA, whenever we manage to get that). Unless Trip actually wants some more warriors to act as scouts...

So, this idea could have some promise, but would need some more detailed thought before we tried it for more than a couple of turns at a time. Any ideas how to make such a scheme more efficient in delivering MIs sooner with little/no shield loss?

	04-09-2003 19:43									#8
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The idea is as follows:

1. Calculate how much Gold we expect to have at various landmark turns in the future. This involves considerations of how much we expect to get from CFC and/or the GWT.

2. Based on the amounts in #1, calculate how many Warriors we can upgrade.

3. Determine how many turns/cities are required to produce the number of Warriors calculated in #2.

4. Plan to disconnect the Iron for a number of turns dictated by #3.

As you can see, it's a very flexible plan. The only real annoyance is "wasting" the Worker-turns to disconnect and reconnect the Road to the Iron (the Mine is not that important).


Dominae

	04-09-2003 21:25									#9
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Iron is hill ne of Tripoli

-edited to reflect actual turn 112 report

turn 112 330 BC
...alva pillages
...horse, squid mine 1,2 of 6
turn 113 310 BC mine 3,4 of 6
turn 114 290 BC mine 5,6 of 6
---tween turns mine completes
turn 115 270 BC
...horse, squid road 1,2 of 3
turn 116 250 BC road 3 of 3 &waste
---tween turns
---WA builds autoswitch to MI builds instead of complete
turn 117 230 BC back to normal can upgrade WA->MI
turn 118 210 BC mob enroute to jumpoff
turn 119 190 BC mob reaches jumpoff

mob is all warriors that can reach southern most barracks with move left on turn 117 so can upgrade on turn 117 (cash available)

So, these extra MI's will be slightly behind the first wave probably reaching the stack at first city capture (healing point)

Last edited by roadcage on 05-09-2003 at 21:49

	04-09-2003 21:40									#10
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Since we may very well be using this tactic again, why Mine the Iron after disconnecting it?


Dominae

	04-09-2003 22:27									#11
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Doubt if we will be using again. And with 2 industrious workers, immediate re-road has very narrow (2 turn) WA window.

Of course this window can be increased by using a smaller crew

	04-09-2003 22:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage Doubt if we will be using again.

Knights?

	05-09-2003 00:35									#13
	Got spare money?

We pillaged the iron tile at the end of last turn. 2 workers are already rebuilding the mine. The mine helps Tripoli get on line for aiding the war effort sooner.

Poly is building a settler, and then 2 or 3 warriors.

Mingapulco is finishing an mi and then building 3 or 4 warriors.

Bananatopia is finishing a merc and then building 3 or 4 warriors.

Incensity (at 8spt) is sticking to an mi.

We will have the cash to upgrade 2 of the warriors (and the last vet sword) in 5 turns. If the deal with CFC goes through, we will have the cash to upg another 3 or 4 of them.

After 5 turns from now, we will have the cash to upg another one of them every second turn or so. Once the GA kicks in, we will be able to finish the upgrades quickly.

In short, this gets us up to strength in AGA quickly (6 mi's) and provides a nice start on AGC (up to 5 more mi's coming later).

D-Day is the 3rd turn following the iron being reconnected. On the turn of the road being complete we upgrade the mi's for AGA (3 or more depending on CFC). The next turn and the one following that these last mi's move into the start position to join the rest of AGA. The next turn we strike.

	05-09-2003 01:00									#14
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Just a minor note, all of the MIs upgraded within 7 turns will be added to either AGA or AGB, and all MIs which can't be added before the invasion date will be added to AGC. This allows us to have 8 MIs for AGA and 8-12 for AGB. This one-two punch will be able to deliver a devastating blow once we confront the main GCA army.

	05-09-2003 02:42									#15
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As a Voxian in another life - I just want you to know that this plan warms my heart greatly.

Dominae's questions in the post about 6 up, and nye's calculations above look bang on.

btw - does one of the MI's need a name? Beta the warrior died a long, long time ago.

	06-09-2003 06:23									#16
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I should have posted this earlier. Maybe I did and just can't find it. Here is the ironless plan...

code:
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6
poly x-x-x-s-w-w-w
ming x-x-i-w-w-w-w
nana x-x-m-w-w-w-w
ince x-x-x-x-x-i-...

wrk1 v-x-m-x-x-x-r move to iron and mine. skip turn, then road
wrk2 v-x-m-v-x-x-r move to iron and mine. move to trip 3 and road
         ^ is turn 114
x = nothing
s = settler produced
w = warrior produced
m = merc produced / mine finished
i = med inf produced
v = worker moved
r = road finished

	06-09-2003 06:35									#17
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There will be 11 warriors and 1 sword ready for upg when the iron comes back on at the beginning of turn 118 (6 on the chart).

We should have 370+ gold by that time. 20 for a sword upg, and 300 for 5 warriors would add to the existing vet mi's and the 1 to be finished in Mingapulco to bring us to 18 mi's for the invasion. If CFC comes through with the second phase of 60 gold, that would increase by 1 to 19.

Upgrades happen on 118. 2 turns of movement to get into position brings us to 120. We can attack on turn 121, 7 turns from our next turn (114, 290BC).