02-09-2003 12:32									#1
	IDF promotes use of paint-ball in combat training. Increase Your PM Length

According to a story in Maariv newspaper, IDF is looking at increasing the length and complexity of training by incorporating paint ball shootouts into the training course of soldiers and special operations troops.

The decision is explained by three factors.

The first is costs. The state budget is cut and the military budget takes a big hit. Firing live bullets is wastefull and this has so far lead IDF to decrease the number of live bullet training, and this has effects on the competence level of soldiers.

The second is that for years now, IDF has been transfering training grounds where bullets can be fired, to local civil authorities, be it Israeli or Palestinian. Even more lands were prohibited from being used as fire-grounds because of "green" activity and protests.

The third is that the usual live-ammo training is one sided and "incomplete" according to the training instructors.

(paraphrased quotes from commanders

"In live ammo training there's only one side - us. For obvious reasons we don't let two groups of soldiers shoot at each other. Thus they practice some skills for later use in combat. This however poorly demonstrates to them the dynamics of a real live fire-exchange.

"Using non-lethal, edible paint-balls, allows for two sides to shoot at each other and be shot at, thus requiring them to react and adapt, and keep alert.

"It really increased the awareness of the trainees to their great vulnerability in the battle field. Most people were "dead" within minutes of the battle start because of arrogance and lack of alertness."


The reporter was embedded in a training of sapper rangers spec-ops, in the chief Israeli facitlity for counter-terrorist and urban warfare, known as "Adam Facility".

	02-09-2003 16:19									#2
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Paintball tactics are quite different from military tactics. As you know it's non-lethal, you take more risks and make more gains in paintball. At least that's what I do when I play it. But there are of course some obvious similarities.

An major difference is that's you don't have to be an Olympic marksman to hit a person at 300 meters with an assault rifle, while you would be lucky to hit someone from 30 meters with a paintball marker. Paintball is only useful to train close range combat, which rarely happens in modern wars anyway.

	02-09-2003 16:46									#3
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quote: while you would be lucky to hit someone from 30 meters with a paintball marker.

What are you shooting with? A Talon?

Nowadays with compressed air and nitro, flatline barrells and all the other gizmos, you can shoot very effectively at 30 meters and hit stuff without much problems at 50 meters. Thats house to house street combat.

So, yes, I think its a good way to practice. Not so much shooting skills, but reaction time and teamwork.

PS I agree that paintball players can take more risks, 'cept for campers...

	02-09-2003 16:51									#4
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We used to have to go around with a lot of electronic equipment so that we and our means of transportation could be killed and destroyed back in the days when I was a conscript. It was usually annoying and didn't always work as it should (ie technical difficulties and cheating from some parts, like the tank troops). But I'd think it's a lot more realistic than paintball. Maybe paintball would do in urban training.

	02-09-2003 17:10									#5
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this reminds me, I was gonna do some paint ball gotcha deathmatching with friends, gotta ask for update

hey, we should do that at some Apolyton meeting

	02-09-2003 18:55									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Daz What are you shooting with? A Talon? Nowadays with compressed air and nitro, flatline barrells and all the other gizmos, you can shoot very effectively at 30 meters and hit stuff without much problems at 50 meters. Thats house to house street combat. So, yes, I think its a good way to practice. Not so much shooting skills, but reaction time and teamwork.

I have a vanilla Spyder. I normally outgun the other guys who use rental gear, where the balls fly in all directions except where they should. But yeah, with a high-end marker, 50 meters is probably still effective range.

So like you say, urban warfare teamwork is possible to train, but I think open terrain training with paintball makes less sense. Wouldn't some kind of laserdome-gear be better for that? Laser beams travels much further than paintballs.

	02-09-2003 19:14									#7
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Interesting. I'm not sure which is better; paint ball or he lazer tag system the US uses.

	02-09-2003 19:16									#8
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The lasers the US uses are better

They can also simulate things like heavy machine guns which shoot through walls. You obviously can't replicate that with paintballs. There is also the distance thing.

	02-09-2003 19:19									#9
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Miles gear doesn't work through walls. I can remember being protected behind tree leaves against miles gear because the tree leaves prevented the laser from reaching me.

If they had been real bullets though I would have been toast.

	02-09-2003 19:22									#10
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edible paintballs??

	02-09-2003 19:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Miles gear doesn't work through walls. I can remember being protected behind tree leaves against miles gear because the tree leaves prevented the laser from reaching me. If they had been real bullets though I would have been toast.

Well whatever I saw was very different from what you're talking about, I think it uses heat.

Some guy was up on the second floor and next to the window. He was crouching down but he still got "shot" by a heavy machine gun. The instructor stopped the drill and made sure everybody saw his mistake. He was pointing out how the walls would not give him cover.

	02-09-2003 20:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Paintball tactics are quite different from military tactics. As you know it's non-lethal, you take more risks and make more gains in paintball. At least that's what I do when I play it. But there are of course some obvious similarities.

True, but the paint-ball system is used primarily to train in urban combat and close combat situations, so it's basically the same.

And as for the lethality - you are right. Which is why to make it "appear lethal" a person who has been hit, is out of the game for the whole training period. Nobody likes that, so they are "more careful".

	02-09-2003 21:01									#13
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Paint balls with non-toxic food die.

	02-09-2003 21:03									#14
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At Camp Pendleton near San Diego the Marine Corp has a great urban assault course which my friends and I used to use for a bit of rogue paintballing. The place is assume! It's designed to look like a destroyed city complete with sewers, holes knocked in buildings, and nice little ready made ambush points.