11-03-2005 07:19									#121
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Never use hut finder.

I hate it.

I hate the concept it represents.

It's bad enough being tempted by black clicking!

I try to forget about the hut patterns.

I love exploration and genuine surprise.

	11-03-2005 07:34									#122
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It's really no different from odeo years... just more information to use... Do you use that knowledge?

And while you might try to "forget" the hut or special pattern, I think that's just plain silly. It's just information that you learn from playing. Any game I play, I disect and learn any advantage I can. The hut/special pattern was one of the earliest things I learned about the game... why should I not use that information????? I don't see how you can hate the concept it represents... it's simple knowledge. Yeah, hut finder makes it easier and faster, but the pattern is already there... I don't see how it's any different than knowing the probablity of attacks... or knowing that you can open a hut in a city range and not get barbs... or open huts before you get your first city and not get barbs... or that trade routes to different continents or civs pay better... or how determine to the direct path between cities to maximize trade routes... or how to shift demand for a city... it's all stuff you learn. This is no different. I had mapped out all the patterns... long before hut finder was available... it's just information that makes you smarter.

I love exploration and genuine surprise as well... and hut finder doesn't change that... you have no clue what the land will be... whether it ends or not... if there is really going to be a special... what kind... will the hut be there.. are there barbs in the black... is anybody else there... it's no different than knowing the pattern... it's still a genuine surprise...

But... if you hate the concept of understanding the game you are playing, or don't want to learn more about how the game works... fine by me... and probably fine by anybody you are going to play.

And again, do you use odeo years

	11-03-2005 07:39									#123
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Mings, knowledge of Oedo years is different and so are the other examples you give. Because they ARE part of the game. I would, for example, be against a program that autmatically revolted for you at the proper time (and sometimes I forget to revolt even though I know when to). Or a program that highlighted the best trade route between cities. Or a program that maixmized payouts. I think any add-on program is outside the game and (like steroids in sports) is an artificial performance enhancer. Even if the knowledge is already there, you still should have to use it correctly on your own not have a program do it for you.

	11-03-2005 07:41									#124
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Like I said, in regards to the rule being discused here I vote against hut finder. I simply don't like it. The map is sacred!

In another discusion we can discuss other rules. Most seem to agree on the oedo years.
Many don't use or agree weith hut finder...

	11-03-2005 07:46									#125
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Why is odeo years any differet? You just memorized something... and the same holds true for knowing the huts and special pattern. Hutfinder beats using my old charts... I don't see how hutfinder is different than the having the knowledge... it just makes it easier and faster... but doesn't change the fact that the knowledge is already there for anybody that wants it.

If you don't want to know or use the information... fine... but it sure as hell isn't cheating... again, the pattern was there and mapped LONG before hut finder.

	11-03-2005 07:52									#126
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One more example then I am done for the night. How would u feel about a program that black clicked the entire map for you and then basically outlined the entire map for you.

Now one could argue that the black clicking knowledge is out there for anyone who wants to use it and such a program would only speed up the game, but I would certainly rather make people black click on their own if they choose to do that.

Or how about a program that autmatically "traingulated" enemy cities for you.

	11-03-2005 07:56									#127
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I have to agree with DD on this one.

A rules thread is where the criteria for what constitutes a cheat is discused.

We'll all make different judgements and we won't all agree on the final consensus of all rules.

I would say that the hut finder falls outside the allowable criteria and only when agreed be deemed a cheat (not retrospective).

Let's ban it in Rah Rules from now on

	11-03-2005 07:57									#128
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If you want to ignore a basic element of the game... fine by me.

The Nights I'm told not to use it, I don't, and it doesn't effect much except to slow me down a bit... but the knowledge is still there.

I would argue that your examples aren't the the same. learning the pattern is far different than clicking...

But feel free to keep thinking knowledge is cheating

	11-03-2005 07:59									#129
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And I can understand if somebody isn't willing to learn the pattern why they might think it's unfair for somebody to use knowledge they have taken the time to learn

	11-03-2005 08:00									#130
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Knowledge isn't cheating but automated aids is.

	11-03-2005 08:09									#131
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Ming - no one has a problem with using the pattern. What eople have a problem with is using an outside aid to exploit the pattern.

	11-03-2005 17:45									#132
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So it's ok if I use my graphs and memory, but not hut finder...

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHA!

	11-03-2005 19:17									#133
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Speaking as a Mac user, HutFinder is clearly an unfair advantage for the other players -- who make it worse by giving me grief for slow play as i try to remember where I am in the pattern.

Of course, they can make a beeline to the specials and early huts. Then insult me even more by chortling about their fast start.

I'm OK with it, I still have fun. I don't even ask them not to use it -- how could I enforce it? But it's not a level playing field, and it's silly to suggest that it is.

I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us -- is significant. But the attitude I sense is "you have an inferior operating system, you deserve what you get."

It's a little insulting.

	11-03-2005 19:30									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude Ming - no one has a problem with using the pattern. What eople have a problem with is using an outside aid to exploit the pattern.

Exploit... huh? Hut finder just makes it faster for me... and for anybody else that knows/understands the patterns. And slow play is one of the biggest problems with the game. The knowledge is already there... the "outside aide" is no different than a brain or personal graphs... If you don't have a clue, and never bothered to learn the patterns, then I can see why it might seem like magic or a cheat to you...

Again... If people agree upfront that it can't be used, I don't really need it. It just adds a little more time to my turns... and I feel sorry for the people that haven't played the game as much as some of us have and are then at a real disadvantage

	11-03-2005 20:12									#135
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Speaking as a Mac user, HutFinder is clearly an unfair advantage for the other players

Hmmm... aren't there programs out there that would allow you to run non mac programs

quote: -- who make it worse by giving me grief for slow play as i try to remember where I am in the pattern.

Your slow play is more due to your total lack of experience compared to people you are playing with. It's not "automatic" to you yet... you will only get better... and as you know... we will always make comments about slow play

quote: Of course, they can make a beeline to the specials and early huts. Then insult me even more by chortling about their fast start.

Hut finder isn't needed for that to happen for anybody that knows the patterns... yes, hutfinder is faster... and that's why I like it... again... slow play is the biggest problem. If you aren't going to use hutfinder... fine... but if you then aren't going to take the time to learn the patterns, don't whine about people that have that knowledge.

quote: I'm OK with it, I still have fun. I don't even ask them not to use it -- how could I enforce it? But it's not a level playing field, and it's silly to suggest that it is.

People can use a second computer... impossible to enforce... but that doesn't mean that we do
However, that is one of the reasons why it's silly to try to legislate it out.

And I would argue with you about level playing field... somebody like you doesn't really have a clue about the total patterns... hut finder actually levels the field for you... and allows you to take advantage of knowledge you haven't been able to learn yet

quote: I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us -- is significant.

Again... there is software out there that would allow you to use non mac software

quote: But the attitude I sense is "you have an inferior operating system, you deserve what you get."

Inferior... no... limiting sometimes... yes.

quote: It's a little insulting.

If you wish to feel and think that... that's your opinion and may or may not be reality

	11-03-2005 22:50									#136
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Ming, you are either not reading the entire arguement against hut finder or are choosing not to acknowledge it.

I understand the special and hut patterns. I'm sure most players in your games understand them. It's not a question of understanding the patterns or even using your knowledge of the patterns. We all do that. It's a question of using a computer generated add-on to the game to assist you in your knowledge of the patterns.

Like revolt years, we all understand them and use them. But we don't have a computer add-on program to revolt for us. Sometimes due to human error we forget to revolt.

We all know about black clicking. But we don't have a computer add-on program that black clicks the entire map and color codes different areas.

I could probably come up with another dozen possible programs that could be developed that would "do the job" for the player. I would be against all of them, even though it could be argued that they speed up the game and do things that players already do on graph paper or mentally.

I totally agree that hut finder isn't illegal per se because anything the players agree on or at least are informed of ahead of time, no matter what it is, is simply a rule of the game.

I think your constant point that people who are against the use of the hut-finder program are somehow not knowledgable players is flat out wrong and distracting from the real issue.

The real issues are:

a) do we want computer add-on programs that automate normal human decision making processes.

b) is fair/even game play promoted amongst players knowing that some players will choose not to use the program and other players can not use the program due to the operating system they use.

Having said all of that, I can live with you guys using it. I just look at it as similiar to a sports team playing on the road. Its just something I have to overcome. But I definitely think it would be better if it were not used.

Last edited by Deity Dude on 11-03-2005 at 23:09

	12-03-2005 00:56									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Deity Dude I understand the special and hut patterns. I'm sure most players in your games understand them. It's not a question of understanding the patterns or even using your knowledge of the patterns. We all do that. It's a question of using a computer generated add-on to the game to assist you in your knowledge of the patterns.

No... I do understand... I just disagree with how you are positioning it. I see it as something that speeds up the game, and gives knowledge to those that would otherwise be at a disadvantage to those that are better versed in the game. I don't NEED hut finder... I know the patterns...

Your arguments against other such devices aren't the same... there isn't a program to outline continents... or a program to find cities... these are not learned things, but things determinded by "clicking"... Hut finder just speeds up the recognition of an easy to learn pattern... just like odeo years... a pattern.

So we can agree to disagree... I can use my charts, memory, or hut finder... no matter which I use, the results are the same... So I would prefer to opt to something that others without my knowledge can use as well, and something that speeds up the game.

	12-03-2005 04:04									#138
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I guess we will just have to disagree.

	12-03-2005 07:17									#139
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For the record, I do have a pretty good understanding of the patterns. I don't know them in the depth that you long-timers do, but well enough. The biggest drawback for me is the easy recall of information.

The Mac can be set up to run PC pgms, i just choose not to.

and while Hutfinder levels the field for poor nooby me when i'm on a pc, it makes it all the less so when i'm on my Mac

	12-03-2005 12:49									#140
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It seems to me that the majority don't like hutfinder...

	12-03-2005 13:16									#141
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And JR, Macs rule! *to quote finbar*

I use both but like WinXPSP2 as much as Panther MasOS 10.3. It's reached a point where both are excellent each with certain advantages... like Panther doesn't run the hutfinder virus

	12-03-2005 20:11									#142
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quote: Originally posted by deity It seems to me that the majority don't like hutfinder...

While the term "majority" for purposes of this limited discussion is technically correct... the sample size isn't large enough for projecting anything

	12-03-2005 20:13									#143
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit The Mac can be set up to run PC pgms, i just choose not to.

quote: I know there's no sympathy for mac users, but the fact that there NO POSSIBILITY of using Hutfinder -- because it doesn't exist for us --

Since you "choose" not to... your early statement is kind of funny

	12-03-2005 23:52									#144
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Ming:

Who likes hut finder other than you and RAH. Note I didn't say who uses it, because I am sure some people use it just because they dont want to be at a disadvantage.

Maybe we should do a poll.

	13-03-2005 02:37									#145
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Many of the old crowd used it and like it for the speed it added to the games... I will admit that many of them don't play much anymore. We did do a poll a long time ago when it first became available... like we did for most of rah rules... and it won by a wide margin.

And when the majority of the people playing in a game don't want it used, I have had no problem not doing so...

I can understand the different points of view, but it doesn't change my opinion on this subject... it might be time to pull out all my old charts again

	13-03-2005 04:13									#146
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The only thing that needs to be polled are the ppl playing each game.
No big deal.

	13-03-2005 09:48									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Ming While the term "majority" for purposes of this limited discussion is technically correct... the sample size isn't large enough for projecting anything

Well, of the folks currently playing that I know of:

4 here have voted against hutfinder

1 in favour; plus another who has not yet posted.

So that's 4 against 2. Not a bad litmus test.

Now, all we need is the opinion of Makeo, Trev, Lungchild, Dylan, Ljube, Zylka, finbar, Horse and a few others to see the results.

	13-03-2005 10:05									#148
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I agree that hut finder should be banned. If people like Ming are "gods" at civ then programs like hut finder are not needed.

	13-03-2005 20:02									#149
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I don't use (and don't want to use) hutfinder, don't really understand the patterns in huts yet, but have nothing against those who use it. If you can find out about the location of the huts anyway it basically only saves some time for all the players.

The only thing I'm really against in these rules is the fact that caravans aren't banned. You're forced to use them in order not to lose miserably to others (half of your trade comes from them) and using and co-ordinating them properly takes horrible amounts of time.

	02-04-2005 01:52									#150
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I like it because it saves time and evens the start of the game a bit for those that don't know that pattern.

As ming says, most of this is known to memory or through charts for the die hards. BUT, even with the charts it takes a more than one hut to determine the pattern and this is the main strength of hut finder. I will be doing research to update my charts to do the same thing now that I know how it's done and there will be games where I will not be allowed to use hutfinder.

The relationship of the huts to specials is mostly known and doesn't require hut finder, except again, hut finder is more acurate in identifying the 3 special vs 4 special combos.

I will use it whenever allowed.

But having said that, if most of the players request that it not be used in a specific game, I will abide by their request. All our rules have been discussed and voted on which is the basis for RAH rules. I still believe in the concept and respect the community.

However the discussions so far has not been sufficient for me to request that RAH rules be changed to exclude it. For now (but could change in the future) the default will remain that it be allowed. But like any specific rule, anyone can recommend a game be rah rules with no hutfinder. I prefer it this way, because unless specified that it not be used, I intend to use it and I don't want to be considered a cheat. My reputation is that I always abide by the rules set. I will continue to. So if you don't want be to use, please make a point to discuss it prior to the game.

Thanks for all the healthy discussion. This is the first item that has been voted in that has a chance to be later voted out. I predict that I would continue to vote it's use acceptable.