03-09-2003 10:07									#1
	CFC: Ally, vassal, or next target? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Me, Arnelos and Togas have been discussing in the chat room the importance of making a timely decision on what we want to do with CFC post-war. At the time, it is in our best interest to maintain as strong and trustworthy relationship with them so that we can both contribute to finishing off GCA. However, some seeds of possible discontent have already been thrown in the fray.

1) I for one still ahven't forgot FotyJ's last alliance proposal when he was head of CFC which asked for sharing all techs and coodinating in practically everything. Knowing that they are behind in those regards it was a very un-diplomatic attempt at convergence, and was promply brushed aside by us.

2) Octavian has made it quite clear that CFC will most likely ask for equal sharing of the spoils of war. And despite that we might well deal the death blow, it was CFC who endured alone for all those turns and in their eyes probably deserve righful compensation for that.


So, what we must do is a mighty strategic juggling act, probably the biggest challange to Poly's diplomacy so far. On one hand do we want CFC as a strong and stable ally against the other continent? Do we want them as vassals to secure our victory? Or should we wipe them out next?

First one thing must be made very clear: CFC at the moment and probably will always consider themselves deserving equal representation in this alliance. The moment they feel we are treating them like vassals they will probably start whining and b*tching and might go so far as to switch sides in favor of someone in the other continent in the long-run. Remember, no matter how close the war against GCA has forced us to cooperate, CFC still has the mentality that we are their biggest rival becaus e we are their main competitor in the "biggest-civ-site-in-the-world" category. For pride they will never accept to be our vassals and would most likely die than do so (not before doing anything in their power to bring us down or make us lose).

This why it is so important we determine the status of CFC and work on that very carefully. CFC as an ally is a valuable asset. Two teams are better than one researching and we will need that to keep up with the powerhouses that are CGN and GWT. But CFC is rightly intent on winning, and we would be the first obstacle to that. Unless they are hoping for some sort of joint victory which IMO is a very back-stabbable thought...

Our dilema is not so different to that facing the US-Britain relationship during WW2. After 1944 it was the US who was bearing the brunt of the fighting between the two allies and righfully came to dominate the alliance diplomatically, leaving Britain as a junior partner. However, that did lead to resentment on the British side. They felt they deserved equal partnership especially considering too that without Britain going it alone in 1940-1941 (and doing most of the fighting up to D-Day), the western alliance would have far less prospects for a dominant post-war position.

How was this solved? Well, the US did came to dominate the western block, since it was an inescapable truth that it was far more powerful than the UK or even western europe as a whole. The British eventually caved in and accepted their position, as did most of Europe (except France to a degree). However, this allied cohesion was mostly due for cultural and historical reasons. None of that is present in a Civ game, and what we would be asking for is to our rival site to suddenly come to terms that we should best help each other ultimately to make us win.

Ain't gonna happen most likely


What I propose
(i.e. Evil Plan)

We take in CFC as an equal parter for the moment. The strength and length of this alliance will be determined solely by what happens on the other continent. We ally with CFC only to the point in which events in the other continent make it obvious that there is someone esle out there with a bigger chance of winning this game. Should developments arise in which the dominance in the other continent's civs is eroded, be it by war or by other means, then bye-bye CFC.

Ok, that was just an idea

	03-09-2003 10:39									#2
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I have no problem with treating CFC equally, but I have a BIG problem with treating them as an equal partner, and there is a difference. We can split what we get with CFC - or at least mostly split it - but I am still pretty steamed over this tech trade. We don't need to bring CFC *UP* to our level in order to treat them as equals. By all means we should cooperate with them, but someone explain to me why we should do what we can to make them MORE of a threat to us?

Ladies and gentlemen, the era of chivalry is close at hand, and with GCA gone, Chinese Riders will have one target on this continent: US. We, having just finished a war with GCA, will be weakened, and CFC, having just rebuilt from fending off GCA, will be stronger than before, right when their Civ's military unit will be at peak power. Then we will merrily thank our partners for their excellent partnership and then watch in horror as the Chinese Riders come spilling over the horizon towards us.

We stand at risk of forgetting what the situation will be like post-GCA, and I think CFC may have plans for exactly that era. What? Attacking a civ that just finished wiping someone out and is rebuilding and preparing to move on? What a brilliant plan! We're doing it to GCA right now - and what's to stop CFC from using that method against us when GCA falls and our last units sit battered and weary?

Frankly, I still think we might have made the wrong alliance here, but apparently it is far too late to reverse that course.

We may have to treat them fairly, but that does NOT mean we need to bend over backwards to accomodate them. CFC doesn't like us and probably never will - that's the bottom line.

Let us not in our confidence become cocky and assume our position of continental dominance will always remain - particularly if we actively seek to stop our own dominance!

Those Riders WILL be coming. Count on it.

	03-09-2003 10:53									#3
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That's why I want to keep CFC as a Vassal or at least manuever into that position so that CFC sees that a a logical worthwhile choice.

Octavian see's Apolyton as CFC's sister site; which it is, in a way. Why is it not concievable that CFC would help Apolyton to win given that its own chances are nill?

If we play it right, we can get that from CFC.

Did we give them a sweet deal? Yes.

Did CFC take the brunt, so far, of GCA's waring ambitions? Yes.

Will this make CFC see us in a better light AND prevent them from cowaring and giving GCA Fuedalism? Yes.

If we play this right, we can keep CFC at just the right size to not be a danger to us, Rider's or no. But, just big enough to do some research and protect themselves from the other teams if they should happen to wander over.

	03-09-2003 10:55									#4
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Simply put, this cannot be answered until we know the full diplomatic position on the other continent.

If the 2 super-powers are aligned, then we need CFC.
If they are just mopping up the small guys, and will be bumping heads soon... then let them fight while we take over our continent.

A short term alliance with CFC is good. We need them against GCA. But jumping into bed now for an equal long term alliance is way too early.

	03-09-2003 11:09									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Frankly, I still think we might have made the wrong alliance here, but apparently it is far too late to reverse that course.

So, we should have allied with GCA who is in a much better position to eventually backstab us?

	03-09-2003 11:13									#6
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CFC is the better Ally of the two, or will be, I should say.

If we had allied with GCA, CFC would be gone and we would not be able to control GCA as easily as we will be able to control CFC after this war is over.

CFC was the right choice. Besides, we would never had gotten Feud, or Construction without allying with CFC.

	03-09-2003 19:13									#7
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Good analogy BF,

alot of the resentment from the British side stemmed from the arrogance of the US, which is something we may be doing unawares to CFC.

The, were in charge, were the saviours, were the ones who have won the war, we just saved your ass... etc attitude will probably cause tension.

Like the British CFC have done the brunt of the fighting, if it wasn't for them we wouldn't be in a position to win... maybe.....
so we should make it clear that we see it that way, and maybe let them have a more active role in the onslaught.

	03-09-2003 20:20									#8
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Even though we are fearfull of CFC using Riders on us, the fact that they are giving us money, now, will keep them from having money later for more upgrades (i.e. horse to Rider). It might be enough to tip the balance in our favor, IF CFC wants to get frisky with us.

Also, we do know that their diplomacy is not that spectacular, so they won't (hopefully) have good relations with GWT and the others (if they get contact).

But then again, we don't know how things will progress in our Diplomatic efforts with GWT, either.

One of the things to remember, is that (as it would appear to be headed in that direction) it is our contenent against theirs.

E_T

	03-09-2003 23:50									#9
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Unless either of us gets a Great Leader, it is to both our advantage and CFC's to become partners once GCA is gone.

Two civs on a decently-sized land mass benefit from lower Corruption, and climb up the tech tree twice as fast. It does not matter that they'll eventually be fighting each other, they're ensuring that they will be strong relative to the rest of the world.

Tech trading is the true power in PBEM.

We have to make CFC realise this. The tough part will be convincing them not to use their Riders...


Dominae

	04-09-2003 00:03									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae We have to make CFC realise this. The tough part will be convincing them not to use their Riders... Dominae

Or to use them against someone else...

	04-09-2003 02:55									#11
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My honest opinion is that CFC would make very poor vassals.
1) Their team seems very amateurish, which is surprising to me, but it does seem to be the case.
2) They've been awful at diplomacy and i'd be surprised if they could go too long sharing the continent with us before starting a world war over something stupid. Which would leave us with the choice of jumping on them to claim what we can, or jumping into the frying pan with them.
3) They seem very bull headed/stubborn to me. Id really be surprised if they worked with us after the threat of GCA is gone.


Honestly, I hate to say it, but if we want a vassal state/partner.... then GCA is a much more stable/safe choice. I'm not advocating we backstab CFC and split the continent with GCA though. I think our best shot is to get all the land east of and including both choke points, then foritifying against invasion, then trying to work out deals with CFC.

Obviously though we should wait and decide this once GCA is nearly history. There's a good chance we won't even be in a position to eliminate CFC.....

	04-09-2003 06:38									#12
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Just my own opinion, I think we may not have well co-ordinated the coming GCA war with CFC. Our message to CFC has always been : Please suffer a little bit longer, we are building up. In ~9 turns, we will attack and GCA is all over blah blah blah .....

However, GCA has a big piece of land, and they are definitely expanding. They have built settlers and been pushing the boundaries to the West, moving and moving nearer to CFC.

1. We cannot do all the fighting ourselves. Let CFC play a role in going for some of the cities. Let CFC lost some troops. Let CFC spread their forces wide. So that when the GCA war is over, we can move on to CFC or defend against CFC attack. But we need to communicate our/their role clearly with them.

2. We must continue to keep the "Goodwill" with GCA. When CDG lost their War with GCA, they gifted their cities to Poly. I don't know if history will repeat itself. Will GCA gift their cities to us ? to CFC ? to Webringen ?

	04-09-2003 07:10									#13
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quote: Originally posted by rush 2. We must continue to keep the "Goodwill" with GCA. When CDG lost their War with GCA, they gifted their cities to Poly. I don't know if history will repeat itself. Will GCA gift their cities to us ? to CFC ? to Webringen ?

Rush, that is quite an interesting contigency you propose actually. What would be our official response if they gifted cities to GWT?

Kind of like what happened with RP/GS in the PTWDG. I like ND's approach of it and others backed that opinion up with "It's a bullsh*t move basically. I'd attack the cities anyway, whether it's PBEM or MP."

What would be our stance on that though? I assume there would be reprecussions if we were to take another civs cities, regardless of how they got them.

	04-09-2003 07:19									#14
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GWT is certainly not the kind of team to accept cities from a dying civ simply for the sake of that team spiting another. Even if they were to consider such an action, what would they have to gain from it aside from pissing us off? GWT/ND wants to win this game, not make powerful enemies over "trivial" issues.

	04-09-2003 07:27									#15
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Ok CFC will never turn into a vassal state if they have anything to do about it. They would rather kill them selves I would think. It would best suit us to use CFC as an ally.

	04-09-2003 07:35									#16
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If they gift cities to anyone other than CFC, then Id have to vote we keep going with the war just like they were still owned by GCA. A foreign precense on our continent is something that we can't tollerate.

If they gift them to CFC then things get stickier, but I highly doubt they'd do that given their past relations. I think they are more likely to go on a self-pillaging spree followed by disbanding cities as we approach than to gift anything to CFC.

	04-09-2003 07:48									#17
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Personally, if the day comes when WE face this situation, I hope we have a bit more honor and dignity than any of the above solutions. I'd leave our land and cities intact - fight tooth and nail for every last inch of our land before we go - but that sort of "Sour grapes and F-you too" sore-losership is really poor.

Hopefully GCA will see it that way too.

	04-09-2003 08:57									#18
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Giving cities to spite is entirely different from giving cities for another to defend.

GCA will not have the option of giving cities for another to defend. There is no one else.

RP did have that option of giving cities for another to defend. There was someone else.

There is a difference.

	04-09-2003 09:00									#19
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btw, ND's and GoW's responses were the correct ones. There was a complication in GoW's case, but they did the right thing for them.

We continue right through them, as if they were GCA cities. Unless, of course, GWT can land 20 units to fight for them in the near future.

	04-09-2003 09:21									#20
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Giving cities to spite is entirely different from giving cities for another to defend. GCA will not have the option of giving cities for another to defend. There is no one else. RP did have that option of giving cities for another to defend. There was someone else. There is a difference.

To their credit, it wasn't as silly as it sounded. In fact, had RP not gifted those cities, the PTWDG wouldn't be half as interesting as it is now.

	04-09-2003 18:20									#21
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* MrWhereItsAt waits patiently for the PtWDG stuff to fizzle out here.

Back on topic now...

I see CFC as a minor partner fighting to restore themselves when the war breaks out. They will manage to at least secure their quarter of the continent before the end of GCA. Fine. If we can take the majority of GCA's land we are still far better off. Look at CFC's GNP figures - they are currently on 1/4 of ours. If they became a Republic they might reach over half of what our currently is. It is taking us forever to research Engineering, and it is thus likely they are researching Mono at 40 turns (now about 30, like us and Eng). Another 40 after that to get to Chivalry. We should have stitched up the war long before then. IMO once the outcome of the war is near certain, that is the time we must assess what to do with CFC. We may decide to eliminate them before they get to their UU, maybe to just ensure we can more than adequately defend ourselves from Riders if we needed to.

As for now, I would hope we keep them as equal partners in all our dealings - we want them to know we value their friendship so we should not be squeamish in conceding to them a little in negotiations, as the hugely more powerful nation in military, economics, land, tech, and growth. Keep them on our side at all reasonable cost, and not begrudge them some conquests in the wra when we enter the arena.