06-09-2003 15:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Well, heck, now I'm scared to kick that rock.

Rocks are smarter than cats. At least they know to stay away when you kick them.

	06-09-2003 20:08									#32
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Without consciousness, the intelligence cannot reach the level of abstract concepts such as error, freedom, assumptions, analysis, power, etc. If the brain were limited to interpreting the stimuli coming from the senses, it would not create more than practical routines; it is only in observing the self acting that the brain can form ideas relating to these actions.

	07-09-2003 02:16									#33
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Rocks do not post on forums.

Except for Fez.

	07-09-2003 02:32									#34
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If you're actually serious about looking into this- at least from a non-religious perspective- I would recommend the books of Douglas R. Hofstadter. Godel, Escher, Bach and The Mind's I both have quite a bit of material on the subject, albeit in a somewhat roundabout manner.

	07-09-2003 02:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Why does consciousness need to be defined, please?

its hard to know how something was created without knowing what it is

	07-09-2003 02:56									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Soul Survivor ....now that's the 10 million dollar question Clearly consciousness has to be something of higher order than simply storing memory and doing computations - or else computers would have killed us all by now. (maybe they're just waiting ) But if the brain is just a complex set of neurons, it is really nothing more than a bunch of curcuits? Essentially a computer, no matter how complex. But nonetheless there is very much we have yet to learn about the brain. There's also the question of when consciousness begins, 1 month after fertilization, 2 months?, 9 months? Are infants even conscious? Are animals conscious? What does it even mean to be conscious? Is it enough to collect data and make conclusions about it? Is it being aware of one's own existence? Or is it something more than that? Memories alone do not prove consciousness. As I see it, consciousness is a phenomena of the present, talking about it in the past has no meaning. There was never any moment in which it was created, consciousness has to be an inherent property of the universe, which recognizes me as "I" become selfaware - simply because I am conscious right now and there is no way to prove anyone or anything else is conscious. Nor is there any way of proving I was once consious, only that right now at this moment I am conscious. By that same logic consciousness can never be destroyed, only return to the universe as I lose my self-awareness. (kinda like that whole buddhist idea) Or consciousness simply begins and ends with me, and repeats in an infinite cycle through my existence. No beginning of the universe, no end of the universe, only me. Or maybe consciousness doesn't exist at all, and all my brain is really doing is carrying out computations over which "I" (which really becomes a meaningless term) am unable to control. Ah the wondrous realm of metaphysics.

I much prefr the last possibility over others. denying the existence of conciousness seems to be the most simplistic answer.

	07-09-2003 05:58									#37
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The brain was never designed to fully understand itself. That part which you don't understand has been labelled consciousness.

	07-09-2003 06:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi The brain was never designed to fully understand itself. That part which you don't understand has been labelled consciousness.

this is probably the best answer, although the term "designed" seems to infer a divine power, which i dislike.

i also believe we'll eventually figure it out, but not without some "unethical" testing, where liberals will whine a lot.

	07-09-2003 08:41									#39
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quote: Except for Fez.

Ok, you got me there

quote: i also believe we'll eventually figure it out, but not without some "unethical" testing, where liberals will whine a lot.

IŽm sure youŽd be happy to volunteer as a test person

	07-09-2003 09:31									#40
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I have no idea how consciousness is created, but from what I can tell, our form of consciousness and capability for rational and abstract thought hasn't been matched by any other animal....though I admit my ignorance, I doubt it's purely a physical construct...

	07-09-2003 10:05									#41
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There is no such thing. And if you think there is, please thoroughly explain it first so I know what exactly you are talking about.

	07-09-2003 13:10									#42
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Copied and pasted: "Being awake, and having the ability to process information is one possible definition. Another definition would be self awareness, or internal representations of our own consciousness. Qualia, the rudimentary feelings of being alive, are also a candidate for defining consciousness. "

	07-09-2003 19:23									#43
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How is consciousness created?

I don't know.

Seems like a good explanation.

	07-09-2003 21:51									#44
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OK - Let me have a go at this one.

First of all, there are some definites; if consciousness exists then it must be:

1. Physically linked to the universe. If it is not linked in any way, then it can have no effect and ergo is not there by definition. This is actually Occum's razor. In particle physics we use this for example when a particle has no couplings to other particles, there is no point in including it in the theory. If you like, this is the definition of 'exists'.

2. Consciousness is not describable by physical law. This is also really definition, because if it were describable by physics its behaviour and 'actions' could be predicted and no longer falls into the realm of 'consciousness' as we think of it. A simple robot for example does not have consciosness.

3. Consciousness can be proven in priciple. We could for example find the 'theory of everything' and have enough computer power to predict the firing of neurons in the human brain. Then observing a 'non-predictive' deviation from the prediction would consitute consciousness according to the previous definitions. (This doesn't mean that we ever will or that it is possible in practical terms - just that there is nothing in principle against it.)

Then there are some unknowns/speculations:

1. I am conscious. I think therefore I am. This is actually enough because science/ quantum mechanics is entirely observer-centric. Every measurement of every phenomena made is made from the point of view of an observer. That doesn't have to be complicated physics experiments -- simply by living our lives we are collapsing quantum mechanical wavefunctions into the eigenstates of the observable all around us. How this comes about is unclear but we are most certainly not just like the rocks around us -- we are something more, and this is proven by science. The only thing which is not clear is whether this truely is consciousness or not.

I would probably put this as a definition: 'Consciousness is the ability to make an observation'.

2. I only know that 'I' think (and that 'I' am). I can never prove that you do (some of you I know do not), but I am willing to assume that you do because you behave like me (more or less)

3. Consciousness can be created, or at least 'transfered' into new life. When a mother has a child, she is one consciousness at the start and there are two consciousnesses at the end.

4. It probably has something to do with complicated systems. If we have consciousness, it seems reasonable to assume that other conscious entities behave somewhat like us - ie. displaying signs of 'life'. Since an entity has to be quite complicated to do that, sophistication is probably necessary.

To my mind, there is no doubt that consciousness exists. The question to me is, what is the connection between consciousness and the 'soul'?

	07-09-2003 23:31									#45
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RJ: I believe it is more profound than that, as part of the human condition, we need a more subjective argument, but some very good points!

	08-09-2003 01:05									#46
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RJ, I like your points, just one thing

"Consciousness can be proven in priciple. We could for example find the 'theory of everything' and have enough computer power to predict the firing of neurons in the human brain. Then observing a 'non-predictive' deviation from the prediction would consitute consciousness according to the previous definitions."

Can consciousness not exist in a thoroughly predictable model?

	08-09-2003 01:34									#47
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This seems to be one of those questions that's nearly impossible to answer just because it's too fundamentally present in our lives. Like defining the word "is." Or pretty much anything having to do with time travel...

	08-09-2003 01:45									#48
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quote: Can consciousness not exist in a thoroughly predictable model?

Very thorough.

	08-09-2003 01:56									#49
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Me: "Do you believe in God?"
Rene Descartes: "I think not"

*Poof* He disappears

	08-09-2003 11:27									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh 1. Physically linked to the universe [SNIP] 2. Consciousness is not describable by physical law.

Isn't this a contradiction?

	08-09-2003 11:58									#51
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Here's a question. Was Hal from 2001 A Space Odyssey conscious?

	08-09-2003 12:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Can consciousness not exist in a thoroughly predictable model?

This of course depends on definition, but with the definitions I gave earlier, no it can't.

First of all, how can something be conscious if it cannot make decisions about even what it thinks in its own mind? Remember that there is no meaning in having a consciousness which is totally decoupled, so any thought must have the potential to affect the world in some way, and therefore a 'consciousness' in a pedictive model must also be predictive. If I can tell you what you are going to think and do for the rest of your life, can you be considered conscious?

Secondly, in QM we need an observer, which is essentially non-predictive. ie. we don't know when the eigenstate is the be collapse ahead of time - it is not predicted.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Isn't this a contradiction?

No. Something can be coupled to the physical objects and laws around us, but not fully decribed by a predictive law.

Hm... sorry but I can't think of any non-particle physics analogy, so excuse the jargon.

In the Standard Model of particle physics we have both electromagnetism and Quantum Chromodynamics (QCD) (+ more forces). Things with charge feel electromagnetism while things with 'colour' feel QCD. Quarks have both colour and charge so they feel both, but the two forces and completely disconnected from each other. In the same way our physical bodies could be completely governed by physical law, as is everything else in the universe, but there could be a weak coupling with some other domain which is non-predictive. (The most obvious possibility would be that 'physical' objects are constrained to move in 4 dimensions (or the 11 dimensions of M-theory) while there are extra dimensions with non-predictive elements -- they would only be coupled to our 4 dimensions weakly by some sort of Randall-Sundrum model.)