05-09-2003 19:31									#61
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Don't forget the warrior Tom Jackson. Mustn't leave out the only general with a better mind for strategy and tactics than Bob Lee, James Longstreet.

Naaah, Longstreet had an overabundance of caution and didn't operate well in independent command as a result. He was a hell of a Corps commander, however.

	05-09-2003 20:04									#62
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Perhaps not, but I can show you bloodstains where blacks were murdered by northerners because they did not want to leave their homes and then I can take you to their graves. Or maybe you would like to view the gravesites of the women who were group raped and killed. Maybe you would like to see the smoke damage from where they burned buildings in towns that had no military value. We could even go to where one family hid their valuables in a column on their porch because the northerners were looting everything. But most of all, we should go and sit at the feet of my 97 year oldaunt and hear her relate the tales as told to her by her grandmother who was there. Biased? Maybe...but perhaps it is your history that needs to look at its objectivity.

Well duh -- I'm well aware that racism is not regional.

In fact, about a year ago on Apolyton, I asked a question about the violent protest against residential integration in a northern suburb when MLK Jr. organized a pro-integration protest. A number of white northerners threw rocks at MLK Jr.

Don't patronize me by pointing out something I already know.

	05-09-2003 20:05									#63
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I also noticed that Slowwhand was not interested in responding to my post on top of the second page.

	05-09-2003 20:11									#64
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I'm through with you, MrFun. Period.

Michael, you're wrong. Usually you have good points.
Look no further than Gettysburg to see I'm right.

	05-09-2003 20:42									#65
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I'm well aware of the mythical "go around the south" idea. Which Longstreet developed without having any means to scout the ground.

I know the Gettysburg terrain like the back of my hand - as it is now, and as it was then.

Longtreet was completely unaware of the location of the AoP VI Corps (in reserve) and of the AoP Artillery reserve, both of which could have repositioned well before Longstreet got into place.

There was inadequate water around the south, there were no roads, so roads would have had to be cut to move artillery and trains.

More importantly, there was no way to unhinge Ewell's Corps and Hill's Corps and move them around the Yankee position, without them going about three times the distance the Yankee troops would have to move, and without them further burdening a water supply that couldn't support a division, let alone a corps, let alone three corps.

Moving to the south would also have required Lee to either stretch his line to a far beyond unacceptably thin degree, to break his line and leave gaps (inconceivably absurd), or to abandon the Gettysburg road junction and lose clear access to his secured lines of communication and retreat, back towards Hagerstown and South Mountain.

The opportunity to win was squandered on the 1st by Rodes, Ewell and Early, then again on the 2nd by Anderson, and to some extent, Longstreet and Hill themselves, for letting the bad blood between the two of them get in the way of coordinating.

Oh, and you can throw in Hood, too for that little adventure in the Devil's Den and Round Top.

	05-09-2003 20:52									#66
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Let me make some points here, ok ?

Ewell was a dumbass, and on top of that was handicapped by as big a dumbass, Jubal Early.

Longstreet told Lee over and over to not launch an attack.
Lee insisted, 3 times.

Virtually every colonel was killed during those 3 days, on the Confederate side.
Pickett was decimated.

Lee noted after the fact that it was a poor decision.
Even offered his resignation.
As a matter of fact, so did Longstreet, as he could read the signs, and didn't think the Confederate army could overcome the losses.
Which they couldn't.

Why fight Gettysburg at all?
Especially once hesitation prevented the high ground from being taken, before the fact.

Vicksburg, I understand.
Gettysburg? Never.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 05-09-2003 at 21:05

	05-09-2003 21:01									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'm through with you, MrFun. Period. Michael, you're wrong. Usually you have good points. Look no further than Gettysburg to see I'm right.

I pointed out some areas where you were right in some sense, and then expanded upon your points to show how it was more complicated than you stated.

For this you are angry?

You can't be angry for any extreme bias I have -- no where I have I stated that all white Southerners are/were racist.

No where have I placed the blame on the South's historical problems entirely on the South -- unlike some white Southerners who place the blame of their region's historical problems entirely on Northerners.

So I guess I don't understand where your anger is coming from.

	05-09-2003 21:09									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I suspect we Northerners were never told the whole story of the Union Army in the South.

Sherman gets a lot of the blame for what was done by the retreating Confederate Army. This is not to say that the Union did no damage, but the South tried a scorched earth policy to starve the advancing union army, including burning at least one city (in N.C.).

	05-09-2003 21:10									#69
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Let me make some points here, ok ? Ewell was a dumbass, and on top of that was handicapped by as big a dumbass, Jubal Early.

Early proved useful in '64 in the Shenandoah, but not before then. Baldy Ewell was also handicapped by Mrs. Ewell, who must have been something, as she had Baldy and his entire staff pussywhipped.

quote: Longstreet told Lee over and over to not launch an attack. Lee insisted, 3 times.

Hence my point about an overabundance of caution. Longstreet never met an attack he liked. Lee had no choice - to retreat without a fight was unthinkable, the army couldn't forage in the face of a concentrated enemy force, so that left precisely one option.

quote: Virtually every colonel was killed during those 3 days, on the Confederate side. Pickett was decimated.

It weren't quite that bad, but that's why you had majors. In terms of command, the Yankees got it worse, although loss of Sickles was undoutedly an improvement. The Yankee command was cut up badly enough that I and III Corps were disbanded, and XI and XII Corps were merged. If you look at the number and quality of Yankee regimental, brigade, division and corps commanders lost, it's staggering.

quote: Lee noted after the fat that it was a poor decision.

That became obvious after the fact, but before the fact, you have to go with the information you have at hand. Which wasn't much thanks to ol' Stuart and his damned mule train.

quote: Why fight Gettysburg at all?

'cause Hill didn't listen to Pettigrew because he wasn't a "professional" and 'cause Heth couldn't control the overexuberance of Jim Archer's and Joe Davis's boys?

quote: Especially once hesitation prevented the high ground from being taken, before the fact.

That high ground was fully takeable on the first - you think had ol' Blue Lightning been there, or any commander with similar balls, that Howard's Kraut farmer corps, fresh from memory of Chancellorsville, would have held Cemetery Hill on the 1st? Or that Slocum's XII Corps would have gotten up to Culp's Hill in the face of ANV artillery enfilading fire from the north and defilading fire from Cemetery Hill? A corps commander with balls would have finished it on the 1st.

	05-09-2003 21:17									#70
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I'm not going to debate every point redundantly.
Once the initial mistake was made on not taking the high ground was made, that should have ended it.
Longstreet's "caution" as you call it, was correct, and way, way ahead of it's time.
Attacking a heavily fortified defense was not his idea of a good time.
BEING the heavily fortified defense was his thing.

And as I said, Lee admitted the mistake.

Another thing Longstreet was correct about, Stuart should have been court martialed.

Now, all this is not said in distain or disrespect for Bobby Lee.
But he made a mistake. That's historic fact.

	05-09-2003 21:20									#71
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Slavery still makes economic sense today, which is why it is still practiced worldwide, even in manufacturing. Ever hear of sweatshops? While most sweatshops do at least pay a wage and let their employees leave after their shift, there are some, even here in the US, even in NYC, that chain their employees to their work sites and leave them locked up at night. This is down largely to illegal immigrants in the garment industry.

In the American territories of the Marianas, specifically Saipan, legal migrant workers are virtual slaves. They have their passports taken from them and they are locked within a compound and cannot get out. The treaty that the US and the Marianas have for the annexation of the Marianas stated that US labor law shall not apply there for a period of ten years (so that should be phased out already).

Within the South, up until about 50-60 years ago, state-sponsored slavery still existed. A company woud tell the state they needed x-amount of convict laborers, and sheriffs would go out and arrest people (generally Blacks or poor whites) for such crimes as vagrancy or loittering (even if they were residents of he community) and sentenced for a term about as long as the company needed labor. That could easily be reinstitued, and a few states have already brought back the chain-gang system.

	05-09-2003 21:24									#72
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Edit.
Never mind, Che. Giving up on you, too.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 05-09-2003 at 21:32

	05-09-2003 21:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You know Che, I'm finally getting tired of listening to your ongoing gripe sessions, too.

So put me on ignore and be done with me.

BTW, do you have a specific criticism of what I wrote or are you just being ornery?

	05-09-2003 22:43									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Slavery still makes economic sense today, which is why it is still practiced worldwide, even in manufacturing. Ever hear of sweatshops? While most sweatshops do at least pay a wage and let their employees leave after their shift, there are some, even here in the US, even in NYC, that chain their employees to their work sites and leave them locked up at night. This is down largely to illegal immigrants in the garment industry. In the American territories of the Marianas, specifically Saipan, legal migrant workers are virtual slaves. They have their passports taken from them and they are locked within a compound and cannot get out. The treaty that the US and the Marianas have for the annexation of the Marianas stated that US labor law shall not apply there for a period of ten years (so that should be phased out already). Within the South, up until about 50-60 years ago, state-sponsored slavery still existed. A company woud tell the state they needed x-amount of convict laborers, and sheriffs would go out and arrest people (generally Blacks or poor whites) for such crimes as vagrancy or loittering (even if they were residents of he community) and sentenced for a term about as long as the company needed labor. That could easily be reinstitued, and a few states have already brought back the chain-gang system.

Chegitz, any thoughts on my statements on top of page two.

I figured if Slowwhand is not interested in engaging in discussion with us, I would like to know what you think of my thoughts.

	05-09-2003 22:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Slavery still makes economic sense today, which is why it is still practiced worldwide, even in manufacturing.

In manufacturing yes in farming no. It doesnt make sense to maintain hundreds or thousands of field slaves on large plantations who will only work a short time (given tractors etc). From an economic/efficiency perspective its better to temporarily hire migrant workers, especially illegal ones

	05-09-2003 23:03									#76
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Chegitz, any thoughts on my statements on top of page two. I figured if Slowwhand is not interested in engaging in discussion with us, I would like to know what you think of my thoughts.

The only thing I'd really disagree on is 4b. The Reconstruction governments were the least corrupt governments the South had seen, at least up until the last few decades, and in some states, not even then (I'm living in one).

4a, the various klans were pretty much deestroyed by 1867 and didn't play a role in the failure of Reconstruction. Political violence, however, was absolutely necessary for the restoration of Democratic Party rule following the end of the military governments.

Finally, you missed the role Northern labor indirectly played in the end of Reconstruction, as Northern bosses needed to relocate the armies up North to defend against growing labor miitancy (which broke out in a massive revolt in 1877, the year after Reconstruction ended).

	05-09-2003 23:04									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH In manufacturing yes in farming no. It doesnt make sense to maintain hundreds or thousands of field slaves on large plantations who will only work a short time (given tractors etc). From an economic/efficiency perspective its better to temporarily hire migrant workers, especially illegal ones

Both the Dominican Republic and the Cote d'Ivorie practice slavery in agriculture. Rather than take care of their slaves, they simply work them to death and get more (in the case of the DR, they kidnap Haitians).

	05-09-2003 23:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Ok...keeping within the subject. If it was bullshit for the South to pull out of the union, then West by God Virginia is double bullshit. It belongs to us.

The constitution allows states to secede from other states with the CONSENT of the original state. West Virginias formation was agreed to by the Virginia legislature - which, in 1863, just happened to be meeting in Charleston in what became West Virginia. Now there was also a group of traitors meeting in Richmond who purported to be the legislature of Virginia, and of course THEY did NOT consent - but as they were NOT the valid legislature this did not matter. It was unfortunate that the VALID legislature meeting in Charleston was short of members from the low land counties, but AFAIK they had a quorom, so it was all quite legal.

	05-09-2003 23:13									#79
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The constitution allows states to secede from other states with the CONSENT of the original state.

And Congress. Interestingly enough, states do not need the consent of Congress to merge or sell territory to each other. Florida, apparentl, tried to sell the panhandle area to Alabama and Georgia followin the Civil War because the state was broke. Alabama couldn't come up with the money, so the deal fell through.

	05-09-2003 23:16									#80
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BTW Chegitz, I think a variation of the Charleston West Virginia strategem could have been used in a more recent legal conundrum (an international one) if only our leadership had had the guts and had been united in their approach.

	06-09-2003 00:36									#81
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Let me conjecture, but the primary reason that slavery no longer makes sense economically today is

MACHINES.

Right?

	06-09-2003 00:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The only thing I'd really disagree on is 4b. The Reconstruction governments were the least corrupt governments the South had seen, at least up until the last few decades, and in some states, not even then (I'm living in one). 4a, the various klans were pretty much deestroyed by 1867 and didn't play a role in the failure of Reconstruction. Political violence, however, was absolutely necessary for the restoration of Democratic Party rule following the end of the military governments. Finally, you missed the role Northern labor indirectly played in the end of Reconstruction, as Northern bosses needed to relocate the armies up North to defend against growing labor miitancy (which broke out in a massive revolt in 1877, the year after Reconstruction ended).

The only counter-point of yours that I disagree with, is that of "Reconstruction governments being the least corrupt."

While I am fully aware of those political leaders who were sincerely going about to make societal improvements, I am also aware of the shameless leeching of some others who only had self interests in mind.

And I stand corrected on the Ku Klux Klan -- Grant helped the legal disbanding of that organization, so yes, those individual white Southerners who were racist Democrats found other ways to carry out racial and political violence.

And your last point about Northern labor unrest -- I was aware of that, but I simply did not include it in my post.

	06-09-2003 00:44									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Let me conjecture, but the primary reason that slavery no longer makes sense economically today is MACHINES. Right?

No. See my posts about about the condition of slavery in the modern world.

	06-09-2003 02:49									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Let me conjecture, but the primary reason that slavery no longer makes sense economically today is MACHINES. Right?

Hey, remember about ten or so yearsd ago when robotic machines were supposed to wipe out the American laborer? Ain't it funny how it works out that the job is being accomplished by Asians and Latinos instead? Fancy machines cost a bundle to manufacture. Not so with laborers in impoverished countries, and the supply is nearly endless.

	06-09-2003 02:50									#85
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Chegitz -- see my last post in response to yours?

	06-09-2003 03:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'm not going to debate every point redundantly. Once the initial mistake was made on not taking the high ground was made, that should have ended it. Longstreet's "caution" as you call it, was correct, and way, way ahead of it's time.

Unfortunately, assuming one should choose to retreat in the face of the enemy, one's enemy must also choose to let you do so, and that's something over which you have no control. You have to remember that Lee's army was still scattered on the first, with Stuart unaccounted for, Ed Johnson's division a day out, Pickett's a day and a half out, and to retreat from the common road junction in the area risked hanging one or all of those divisions out to be captured whole, and for what?

Longstreet was proven ineffective in independent command due to his caution, when he was detached to independent duty after Fredericksburg up until the ANV moved out after Chancellorsville. Longstreet was an excellent corps commander within his limits, but his leadership would have brought the Yankee armies down to Richmond far faster than Lee's leadership did. Lee at least realized you can not win a war against a numerically and productively stronger enemy by a string of tactical defensive victories in your own territory.

quote: Attacking a heavily fortified defense was not his idea of a good time. BEING the heavily fortified defense was his thing.

Where was the heavily fortified defense? Jackson certainly would have had no trouble giving the bayonet to those people on the 1st, and victory was achievable on the 2nd as well, but the attacks on the 2nd were poorly coordinated in the extreme.

quote: And as I said, Lee admitted the mistake. Another thing Longstreet was correct about, Stuart should have been court martialed. Now, all this is not said in distain or disrespect for Bobby Lee. But he made a mistake. That's historic fact.

With the luxury of hindsight, yes. Unfortunately, fear of making mistakes doesn't make for good commanders.

	06-09-2003 03:17									#87
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so it was all quite legal.

As were our secession conventions.

	06-09-2003 05:17									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As were our secession conventions.

Just when I thought I was not going to run into any more jokes in this thread . . . . .

	06-09-2003 06:05									#89
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Feel free to hold forth on any theories you may have on why those sovereign states who voluntarily associated with each other, without waiving their sovereignty, could not later choose to withdraw from that voluntary association.

Perhaps in those sections of the Constitution dealing with the several States' obligation to the United States government? Aw, shucks, there ain't no such section. Oh well, guess you're SOL.

	06-09-2003 07:04									#90
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MtG, I think the South found out what Roman allies found out. They were no longer truly "free" to go their own way.

But, if two states enter into a treaty that does not specify that it can be terminated unilaterally, it can only be terminated mutually. Ditto, confederacies.

Right?