05-09-2003 23:29									#31
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Meh.
Define optimal.

Edit : (re: Firelad)

	05-09-2003 23:40									#32
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quote: Of course, kids are an IMMENSE responsibility. But one has to do it. Otherwise, one has done NOTHING in this world. Unless he's a famous scientist, leading politician, or an amazing artist.

Ok so why should I do anything big in this world? Any good reasons? (answers should not contain a god or some mystic greater good to be of any relavance to me)

Besides having a kid is not special. Millions of others have famalies. So what?

	05-09-2003 23:52									#33
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quote: Ok so why should I do anything big in this world? Any good reasons?

No reason. I thought this was an axiom for most people. If you feel that you don't have to do anything big, and you think that greater good is a boring cliché, I've got nothing to sell you.

That's such a sad reflection on our society.

	06-09-2003 00:19									#34
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I see it as a room full of monkeys... If you have more monkeys you have a higher likelihood of one of them actually typing a word.

Thus, the more people there are the higherly the likelihood that someone might become someone of note and come with an idea or an invention that could increase the capacity of earth and/or the abilities of humankind.

	06-09-2003 00:35									#35
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humans are a bit more trainable than monkeys.

	06-09-2003 00:37									#36
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just a bit though...

	06-09-2003 00:37									#37
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@ az
I thought you are an utilitarian. = max happyness possibel. Most ppl. who achieved something great in history didnt seem to be very happy themselves. Usually they were kind of depressed (according to the history books I know at least). Sure their achivments may have increased the happyness for others .....

I for my part prefer to take the happyness-concept on a more individuell basis ...

	06-09-2003 00:38									#38
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quote: I for my part prefer to take the happyness-concept on a more individuell basis ...

TMI

	06-09-2003 00:41									#39
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Well population growth is unsustainable in the long term and can hurt an economy (look at Saudi Arabia, the per capita GNP has been dropping steadily there for a long time due to high population growth and now enough jobs to go around, same deal with Iran). But then if you get too much less than an average of 2 a woman then you have the average age going through the roof, a huge population of retired people to support compared to the number of working age people and general demographic implosion. This is going to his a lot of Europe HARD in the next century, especially in the East were you have low birth rates and young people emigrating.
What'd be perfect is about a 2 kids per woman birth rate, and what with a few kids dying young you'd get a nice slow population decline...

	06-09-2003 00:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko What'd be perfect is about a 2 kids per woman birth rate, and what with a few kids dying young you'd get a nice slow population decline...

Not necessarily, as there are more women than men. 52% of the population are women.

	06-09-2003 00:50									#41
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definitely a good thing

the more population the more einsteins and van gogh's, the more bachs and mozarts

note that using the population is deffinitely important (imagine all the great people being under used in places like Haiti and the like)

also it is high population which has driven humanity in the past and will drive it in the future, if there was no population pressure than there would be no reason to achieve anything and we would become scientificall and culturally stagnant (and I beleive die out)

so do your part for the team

Foster care and adopting are also helping the team though, since it is helping to keep a life from being wasted

Jon Miller

	06-09-2003 00:54									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller (imagine all the great people being under used in places like Haiti and the like)

Imagine so many people the whole world looks like Haiti.

	06-09-2003 00:59									#43
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that is not an issue of people

that is an issue of use of people

the earth could easily handle 10 times as many people as we have now without even going for efficancy like becoming more vegeterrian

I could have used other examples than haiti, the problem in all those really poor crappy places to live is not that there are too few people, it is that the infrustrcture is bad or nonexistant, the government is corrupt and the people's lives are being wasted

my grandparents lived in haiti for years and my mom visited, what expereince do you have of the problems in haiti?

Jon Miller

	06-09-2003 01:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY @ az I thought you are an utilitarian. = max happyness possibel. Most ppl. who achieved something great in history didnt seem to be very happy themselves. Usually they were kind of depressed (according to the history books I know at least). Sure their achivments may have increased the happyness for others ..... I for my part prefer to take the happyness-concept on a more individuell basis ...

You've answered your own question.

quote: just a bit though...

not all of us are chemical engineers, Japher.

	06-09-2003 01:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Population growth is good as long as it doesn't exceed the ability to sustain such itself.

We may have already damaged earth's carrying capacity
The brightest person I've ever met claimed that the bizzarre fires in America and mexico and weather in '98 was the beginning of that. The weather has been crazier this year. There were 13,000 more dead in France this year supposedly because of the heat, and fires were raging in Europe.

	06-09-2003 01:20									#46
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quote: Originally posted by realpolitic There were 13,000 more dead in France this year supposedly because of the heat, and fires were raging in Europe.

Are you trying to cheer Slowwhand up, or something?

	06-09-2003 01:21									#47
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could be so, and could be not. It's a REAL complex issue.

	06-09-2003 01:36									#48
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If growth of population exceeds the growth of economy everyone gets poorer. Still, population growth is a good thing, but in some parts of the world, they seem to be overdoing it.

	06-09-2003 01:38									#49
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A low birth rate is a good thing, and a high population growth rate is a good thing (i.e. from immigration). The problem with a high birth rate is that parents have less resources to distribute to their kids, hence more people are malnurished, badly educated, etc. Growth from immigration is a good thing because new markets are created, new capital, both human and material, is brought in, etc., while not contributing to the aforementioned problems with a high birth rate.

	06-09-2003 01:39									#50
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Low birthrates can suck without immigration (i.e. Italy), high immigration can also suck (i.e. California)... I say we need to find that happy medium...

	06-09-2003 01:41									#51
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What's wrong with immigration in California? That's what's been fueling so much of the economic growth.

	06-09-2003 01:44									#52
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quote: That's what's been fueling so much of the economic growth.

And eating a lot of it up. Immigration requires a lot of resources in order to assimilate the new members, but in California many have chosen not to assimilate and instead have chosen to make the government cator to them.

	06-09-2003 01:49									#53
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What do you mean by assimilation? Learning English? You're insane if you think ESL classes, Spanish forms, etc. eat up a significant portion of the economic growth created by immigration.

	06-09-2003 02:26									#54
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I think that this hardly suffices to be called assimilation.

	06-09-2003 03:17									#55
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quote: so do your part for the team.

Again, it's a question of how you use the people. Look at the population density of Singapore and compare with Haiti. Haiti has a much lower population density, yet is much poorer economically. If a high population density always makes people poorer, then how do you explain this phenomenon?

I would argue exactly the opposite is true, in the areas more densely populated, you can afford to do a great deal more specialisation than in a low density of population. Given an economic system that allows the greater number of people to find work with their specialisation, then you can do better with greater population.

quote: with a high birth rate is that parents have less resources to distribute to their kids, hence more people are malnurished, badly educated,

At first, this is true, but what about after 10 years when the children produce more than they eat? Yes, population growth can be difficult to accomodate, but the increase in productive people provides the means to accomodate the growth.

A fellow named Simon Gray rebutted the Rev. Malthus by arguing that population growth and food supply are not independent variables. Since food supply has a static demand, farmers generally restrict themselves to growing the same amount of food each year. With a growing population, more fields will come under cultivation simply because the demand has increased, often rendering more marginal lands competitive.

Therefore, increasing the population, often results in an increase in the food supply.

	06-09-2003 03:29									#56
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The controversial Swedish philosopher Gunnar Adler-Karlsson, banned and exiled to Capri for his anti-PC statements, said in a lecture I attended that the globe could easily support 50 billion people if we just learned to co-operate instead of making war and spent some money on irrigation, agriculture research and bio-science. I hope he is right and that we will actually see science and politics heading that way during my lifetime (which is about 50% through, according to statistics).

	06-09-2003 03:31									#57
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Well, if the EU would just allow GM foods we'd be fine

	06-09-2003 04:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Low birthrates can suck without immigration (i.e. Italy), high immigration can also suck (i.e. California)... I say we need to find that happy medium...

Part of the problem with Italy is that Italians are too educated in general to want the **** jobs that Albanians get hired to do. The Japanese have this problem too, but have been much better at automation of industry - thereby raising productivity.

But again, look at most of the developing world where there are more people than work. This is definitely not good for the economy.

Note also that the more people there are, and the more space they take up, the bigger a footprint they leave. Thus the more planetary capacity is reduced due to enviro degradation. Now combine this with a high school level of biology. When a species becomes too successful in terms of population growth famine, disease (and the resultant infighting for resources like food) inevitably bring population levels down to more optimal levels.

Thank you very much, but I'd rather take a small hit in the economy (if this would even happen) now, than have wholesale pestilence - which would probably hurt the economy more (except for Big Pharma).

	06-09-2003 04:12									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Well, if the EU would just allow GM foods we'd be fine

Or if religious fanatics would curtail their attempts to breed themselves into the majority we could live on normal foods.

	06-09-2003 04:14									#60
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quote: the more population the more einsteins and van gogh's, the more bachs and mozarts

there are 6billion people alive today, they have still come no where near the intellectual hights of 5thBC Athens, which had about 40,000 i think.