05-09-2003 21:56									#1
	thoughts on Theoden, KINGship, and lord of the rings Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Pardon the commas.

The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy. Especially relevant in that the film of "Return of the KING" will soon be out.

Note that Theoden, ruler of Rohan, is called Lord of the Mark of Rohan, rather than King of Rohan.

Perhaps due to his relation as vassal to the ruler of Gondor, and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?

I note he is never called "prince of Rohan"

	05-09-2003 21:59									#2
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quote: and a mediveval notion that a king cannot be a vassal?

Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry

	05-09-2003 22:02									#3
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Actually this isn 't correct. As I recall, there was an English king who was a vassal to the French throne. Can't remember who or when, though - sorry

There were several english kings who held what had been fiefs of France - the english tended to deny that they had to do homage for them, on grounds of the principle i mentioned above. Some - John - ISTR did do homage though. Maybe not that a king couldnt be a vassal, but that he couldnt do homage.

So, do you agree that the Lord of the Mark should have been a KING?

	05-09-2003 22:25									#4
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A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy).

If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans.

IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar

Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.

	05-09-2003 22:27									#5
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BTW, Theoden is referred to as King Theoden.

	05-09-2003 22:28									#6
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara A King could be vassal to an Emperor, as was the King of Bohemia to the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. The Crowns of Burgundy and Lotharingia were vacant, but any King would also have been a vassal of the Emperor (the Emperor himself was also King of Germany and Italy). If you asked the Ottoman Sultan, the King of Hungary was his vassal, as he paid tribute (and later by conquest). The King of Serbia was a sometime vassal of the Ottomans. IIRC, the King of Sweden was a vassal to the King of Denmark during the Union of Calmar Since you wrote medieval I won't go into ancient kings and vassalage.

Good historical points, re kings and emperors.

I personaly dont particulary see the Lord of the Mark becoming an Emperor and as for becoming a Deity , well that would stir the wrath of the Valar, for sure.

	05-09-2003 22:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara BTW, Theoden is referred to as King Theoden.

	05-09-2003 22:34									#8
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Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor ever had ultimate authority over Rohan.

Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

	05-09-2003 22:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, it had been thousands of years since the southern numenorians had control over Rohan. And I don't think the Steward of Gondor had authority over Rohan. Or maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.

And no, the Steward did not claim authority over the INTERNAL affairs of Rohan - but the same was true at SOME times in regard to SOME vassals.

Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.

	05-09-2003 22:39									#10
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Rohan is not a vassal state to Gondor

	05-09-2003 22:39									#11
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quote: Note also that the Stewards were not KINGS.

Of course.

quote: When the rohirrim came down from the north about 600 years prior to the war of the ring IIRC, the Rohirrim agreed to come to the aid of Gondor at need, in return for the land. That would seem to be the definition of a military fief. Dont think homage was mentioned though.

OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

	05-09-2003 22:43									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

yes with the Stewards, who were already ruling when the arrived, IIRC

	05-09-2003 22:44									#13
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I am delighted that this is being treated as a serious thread about Tolkien and medieval history.

	05-09-2003 22:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK, then they would have made that deal with the Steward of Gondor? I don't have my book handy...

Yes, the line of Kings in Gondor died out well before that. The King of Arthedain then laid claim to the Crown of Gondor, but the nobility of Gonder refused to be ruled by a Northerner.

	05-09-2003 22:52									#15
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That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be?

I'm going to have reread the appendices.

	05-09-2003 22:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's a subject that I never figured out. The only reason why Aragorn was able to become King of Gondor was because his subjects (and most importantly Faramir) allowed that to be? I'm going to have reread the appendices.

By law, the heir of Elendil would become king, but it was up to the people of Gondor to recognize that someone was genuinely the heir. With the case of the king of Arthdain, they claimed he was not the true heir, IIRC. In the case of Aragorn there was no dispute.

BTW, dont you suppose, that in the dangerous times of the war of ring, that King Theoden maintained border posts? Along the borders with Dunland, Isengard, and along the river certainly, if not with Gondor? At least a thousand posts?

	05-09-2003 23:16									#17
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With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.

	05-09-2003 23:19									#18
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a thousand posts along the border indeed, to keep out Orcs, wraiths, etc

at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?

And no, he wouldnt have simply announced his title, for fear of the wrath of the Valar.

	06-09-2003 00:15									#19
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Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor!

It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory.

Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow).

So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.

quote: The time has come to discuss certain aspects of the Tolkien trilogy

Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.

	06-09-2003 00:18									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Turambar Theoden was King of Rohan and Rohan was not a vassel state to Gondor! It was and independant nation whose lands used to belong to Gondor but were formally given over to Eorl and his people by the Steward Cirion because Eorl came to Gondors aid during a time of war. And also because Gondor had diminished as a people and could no longer populate and defend such great a terrortory. Cirion and Eorl also swore an alliance between their nations to come to each others aid in times of need. You'll remember Gondor calling upon Rohan to help during the War of the Ring (sending that red arrow). So the relationship between them was one of allies not one being a vassel to the other.

i do now recall "all hail theoden king!"

but a "mark" means a march or borderland, does it not - usually denoting a fief? Whence the title Marquis.

But im glad he wasnt Marquis of Rohan.

	06-09-2003 00:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Turambar Oh and Tolkien never wrote a trilogy! He wrote LoTR as one book which the publishers printed and released in three parts.

He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.

	07-09-2003 17:24									#22
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quote: He didn't give it to them as one book, but over several years.

Not sure where you got that idea from.

Tolkien gave it to them as one whole book. The publishers decided to publish it in three parts to keep printing costs down. Tolkien had in fact finished writing all of LoTR years before it got published in 1954 / 1955.

	07-09-2003 23:33									#23
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What are you all talking about?!?

Bilbo, Frodo, and Samwise wrote the Red Book of Westmarch (aka The Lord of the Rings)!

	08-09-2003 00:50									#24
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quote: With Aragorn there was no dispute because of the ghosts.

Bingo! That answers it.

	08-09-2003 02:00									#25
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Bilbo! It does.

	08-09-2003 02:28									#26
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Couldn't you have at least tried to make it a little more subtle lord of the mark?

Then again, your username is cooperating nicely...

quote: at least a thousand posts, or how else could the lord of the mark have been a king?

	08-09-2003 03:04									#27
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Don't forget:
-The King of England, Richard Lionheart agreed to be vassal to the Emperor (a Hohenstaufen IIRC) in 1194.
-The King of England, John Lackland agreed to be vassal to the Pope in 1205.

	08-09-2003 21:08									#28
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I reread the passages regarding Aragorn and the other point to prove that he was the King was that he had the hands of a healer.

	10-09-2003 05:33									#29
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I know this thread had slipped a few pages but I came across this site on the internet. I thought maybe some of you might like to look at it. Some may already know about it. It's a pretty good sized site. Lot's of info there.


http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

	10-09-2003 06:05									#30
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Yeah. Someone on Sd.net posted a link to that Encyclopedia. Good stuff.