06-09-2003 07:34									#1
	What if Watergate were today? Get a bigger avatar today!

It's 30 years since Watergate broke big and it's still a stain on democratic (or should I say Republican ) politics.

What would people be saying here if Watergate was going on right now.

I know I'd be suggesting Nixon be shot (probably only in the company of Sava). What about you (or what do you think other OTers would say )

	06-09-2003 07:38									#2
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It IS happening its called Huttongate :O)

	06-09-2003 07:39									#3
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No one would care, because Bush is a Prophet of God and can do no wrong.

Hail the Almighty Bush, who is far more wise than any mere mortal who dares challenge him!!!

	06-09-2003 07:42									#4
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Nearly impossible to say, since much of the current U.S. political environment has been poisoned by Watergate and its aftermath. It would likely be a quite different political landscape today had Watergate not occured, so it's difficult to predict.

	06-09-2003 07:49									#5
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Depends entirely on public support for that president in question. Assuming Nixon-like support, we'd expect something like watergate. Assuming idiocy of the masses (bush), he'd get off with a smack on the ass and a set of lego bricks.

	06-09-2003 08:02									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What would people be saying here if Watergate was going on right now.

It depends. If the President happened to be a Republican then Dems would demand his immediate impeachment and removal from office. They would go on every news network and claim that Republicans are evil bastards out to destroy democracy and civil rights.

On the other hand, if the President were a Democrat, then Dems would claim that it is all a right right conspiracy to destroy the best President in American History, and that Republicans are evil bastards out to destroy democracy and civil rights.

	06-09-2003 08:24									#7
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It depends. If the President happened to be a Republican then Dems would demand his immediate impeachment and removal from office. They would go on every news network and claim that Republicans are evil bastards out to destroy democracy and civil rights.

Funny how you seem to forget history. You'll note that there has not in recent times been a wholesale partisan movement by the Democrats to impeach a sitting President.

However, the Republicans are the ones who did make such a move. Hell, prominent Republicans like Tom DeLay and Bob Barr were calling on impeaching Clinton right after he was elected for the first time, well before we ever heard about Lewinsky. They seemed to think disagreeing with a them = impeachable offense.

	06-09-2003 08:28									#8
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Also, Diplo, remember that the halfway believable impeachment they proposed was because of a completely private matter.

Honestly, I don't give a **** about who Bill, George, or anyone is screwing, just as long as they can do their job good.

	06-09-2003 08:29									#9
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IIRC Bob Barr called for Clinton's impeachment 5 separate times including one time AFTER the Lewinsky situation.

One commentary I read joked that Bob Barr would call for Clinton's impeachment if Clinton sneezed during a State of the Union address as an impeachable offense...

With such an attitude, it was thoroughly enjoyable watching him lose in the primaries during the 2000(?) election.

	06-09-2003 08:32									#10
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Nixon's offenses were so blatant and so heinous that his ouster became a bipartisan affair. Ah, what it takes to get Congress to cooperate... wars and scoundrels!

	06-09-2003 08:49									#11
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The president will rot in a prison cell this time! Nixon should of been tossed in jail, but noooo, Ford had to pardon his former boss and used the "let's get over it line to cover his ass.

Bob Barr should rot in jail for his diarrhea of the mouth.

Diplomat needs to be sent to sent to a "reeducation camp."

	06-09-2003 08:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Ford had to pardon his former boss and used the "let's get over it line to cover his ass.

While Nixon should have gone to jail, I can't argue with Ford's pardon...and there's nothing about it I can see that was "covering" Ford's ass. If anything, it probably cost him election in 1976. The pardon did indeed allow the nation to move on and start putting the ghosts of Watergate to rest. Ford and others really believed it was necessary to do it so they could start national healing.

Now, in hindsight, maybe it would have been better to have had an example made of Nixon... who knows?

	06-09-2003 08:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Funny how you seem to forget history. You'll note that there has not in recent times been a wholesale partisan movement by the Democrats to impeach a sitting President. However, the Republicans are the ones who did make such a move. Hell, prominent Republicans like Tom DeLay and Bob Barr were calling on impeaching Clinton right after he was elected for the first time, well before we ever heard about Lewinsky. They seemed to think disagreeing with a them = impeachable offense.

In case you forgot, ANYTHING is an impeachable offense. Wearing the wrong tie is an impeachable offense. Congress is not required to justify an impeachment.

	06-09-2003 09:01									#14
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Yes they have to. If not there would have been far more impeachments in our history. It does say in the constitution a misdemeanor (I forget the whole wording but is certainly calls for this). General incompetence is NOT something one can be impeached for.

	06-09-2003 09:03									#15
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quote: The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present. Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

Congress can impeach someone for anything they damn well please.

	06-09-2003 09:04									#16
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GePap: If we're thinking the same thing, it involves a lot of pretzels, and copius quantities of laxative.

	06-09-2003 09:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker In case you forgot, ANYTHING is an impeachable offense. Wearing the wrong tie is an impeachable offense. Congress is not required to justify an impeachment.

You have a bizarre view of the Constitution and civics, considering the Constitution sez:

"Section 4. The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

Now, where does wearing the wrong tie count as treason, bribery, or a high crime and misdemeanor?

All charges are not created equal, and implying that it somehow wasn't partisan lunacy for DeLay and Barr to call for Clinton's impeachment back in 1993 is absurd.

	06-09-2003 09:07									#18
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again:

quote: The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present. Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

They have the sole power to impeach. If Congress decides to impeach someone, they're out.

In addition to this, I asked my dad, who's a lawyer, and he said yes also.

	06-09-2003 09:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present. Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law. Congress can impeach someone for anything they damn well please.

Note the above says NOTHING about what the should be impeaching over, just procedure. The section I quoted, however, explicitely shows you are dead wrong. They cannot impeach over anything they damn well please, the can only impeach for treason, bribery, and high crimes and misdemeanors, period. Attempting to impeach a President for anything other than those things is unconstitutional.

	06-09-2003 09:10									#20
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker They have the sole power to impeach. If Congress decides to impeach someone, they're out. In addition to this, I asked my dad, who's a lawyer, and he said yes also.

First, you're mistaken on a basic level. The Senate does NOT have the power to impeach at all, just to try the President for removal. It's the House of Reps that impeaches!

And again, you're wrong. While your Appeal to Authority (daddy) fallacy might impress some, it's irrelevant.

Kindly point your dad to the Section wherein it details what congress may consider as suitable for impeachment and ask him to explain himself.

Now, if he admits a Congress that impeaches a President in the absence of those factors is acting unconstitutionally, then he's on the right track.

	06-09-2003 09:10									#21
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Do you ever get the feelin the US intelligence services read these threads?

	06-09-2003 09:13									#22
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From FindLaw:

quote: Treason is defined in the Constitution; 764 bribery is not, but it had a clear common-law meaning and is now well covered by statute. 765 High crimes and misdemeanors, however, is an undefined and indefinite phrase, which, in England, had comprehended conduct not constituting indictable offenses. 766 In an unrelated action, the Convention had seemed to understand the term ''high misdemeanor'' to be quite limited in meaning, 767 but debate prior to adoption of the phrase 768 and comments thereafter in the ratifying conventions 769 were to the effect that the President at least, and all the debate was in terms of the President, should be removable by impeachment for commissions or omissions in office which were not criminally cognizable. And in the First Congress' ''removal'' debate, Madison maintained that the wanton removal from office of meritorious officers would be an act of maladministration which would render the President subject to impeachment. 770 Other comments, especially in the ratifying conventions, tend toward a limitation of the term to criminal, perhaps gross criminal, behavior. 771 While conclusions may be drawn from the conflicting statement, it must always be recognized that a respectable case may be made for either view

	06-09-2003 09:15									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Nearly impossible to say, since much of the current U.S. political environment has been poisoned by Watergate and its aftermath. It would likely be a quite different political landscape today had Watergate not occured, so it's difficult to predict.

An excellent statement. The political power of scandal was developed to an art form with Watergate.

quote: Now, where does wearing the wrong tie count as treason, bribery, or a high crime and misdemeanor?

I don't know...I've seen some pretty bad ties in D.C,

	06-09-2003 09:16									#24
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We should all know that the House brings impeaches and acts as prosecutor while the Senate sits as the court and judges the case.

Oh, and of course Boris is correct: and if anyone here thinks about it, if impeachement could happen over anything, there would have been more than 2 in our history (didn't the house actually pass the bill to impeach Nixon days before he quit?)

	06-09-2003 09:17									#25
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*points to above post*

	06-09-2003 09:19									#26
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Hey Sky, why not try to use evidence that backs your claim, not acts against it?

Note that the general consensus, and precendent (which matters a hell of a lot) defines high misdemeanors as at east a criminal offense. Madison's opinion remained just that. American law is built on precendent, and the precedent calls for at least a criminal act.

	06-09-2003 09:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GePap didn't the house actually pass the bill to impeach Nixon days before he quit?

GePap, IIRC the bill was out of commitee and was going to the floor when he quit. Its passage was considered a sure thing. Of course I was only 10 at the time so I could be wrong. It was really interesting seeing how upset all the adults were over what was happening.

	06-09-2003 09:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey Sky, why not try to use evidence that backs your claim, not acts against it? Note that the general consensus, and precendent (which matters a hell of a lot) defines high misdemeanors as at east a criminal offense. Madison's opinion remained just that. American law is built on precendent, and the precedent calls for at least a criminal act.

quote: it must always be recognized that a respectable case may be made for either view

	06-09-2003 09:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker *points to above post*

Which, of course, doesn't bolster your claim, since it's conclusion was:

"a respectable case may be made for either view"

However, even within that debate, while the scope of "High Crimes and Misdemeanors" was vague, it clearly didn't stand for "anything." So your tie analogy is still patently ludicrous. After all, if the Founders meant for it to mean "anything," why not just say a President can be impeached for anything? Sorry, but claiming a President can be impeached for anything is just ludicrous. As GePap points out, there's been only two impeachments in history. Of course, both were insanely partisan affairs driven by Republicans...

Nixon's resignation saved him being impeached by a bipartisan effort, however.

	06-09-2003 09:25									#30
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A "respectable case" can be built for the twinkie defense as well.;it does not make it "true". Plus, of course your actual claim is wrong anyway's. I mentioned incompetence, you said anything at all. Those are not the same things. Even Madison said that you needed special circumstances to act.