01-04-2000 06:24									#1
	Attention!!!! The UMIP... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Greetings, Komrades! I have been dispatched to give this to you by the Komissar of the People:

"Salutations. The war has not been going well for us on the homefront. Our refugees have made it to the Urals, but, due to bureaucratic ways, have ended up in Kirov and Kazan , contributing to nothing. The high officials have been sent to gulags- I mean re-education centers! This has cut down on experience in the sector and help is needed. Any pragmactic and conformatory advice will be received well. Any anti-party or radical threats will be taken with severe force as your building manager will be informed of your behavior and will dispatch a pair of NKVD agents to dispose of you...But we won't have any trouble...Will we? But enough with that, help the Party, Down with the Petty Bourgeosie, Long live the Revolution!"

Well, the Komissar sometimes doesn't know what he's saying, but he'd appreciate any ideas, radical or not. So be a Patriot, stand up to the Krauts, Join in The Great Patriotic War!!!!

	01-04-2000 09:21									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Tell me, have you ever lived under a communist government?

And what does this have to do with anything?

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National Atheist's Day, April 1st

	01-04-2000 19:00									#3
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Well to simply put it: I was putting the Stalinist-World War II Era feel into this simple question: Have any good Ideas for the UMIP (Ural Mountain Industry Program) in Red Front v1.4, where you resettle east towards the Urals and try to build it up. Is that clearer?
[This message has been edited by The ANZAC (edited April 01, 2000).]

	01-04-2000 23:24									#4
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Crystal.

	02-04-2000 20:11									#5
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Great then. Anyone have good Ideas?

	03-04-2000 09:42									#6
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Anzac,
I just beat RF 1.4 this weekend, and with the new addition of a super-laborer late in the game, I was able to have the best UMIP I've ever undertaken...

First make a list of all the eastern cities that will participate. They should build, in this order: Kolectiv farm, Steel Mill, Ammo Plant, Air Force Base( optional for air-lifting units), Barracks, units...
Keep track on your list what eack of the cities is working on. I generally rush-build everbody a kolectiv, helps them grow...

You want to make all of the doomed western cities build refugees at the start of the game. You'll get some None units too, but pump them out anyway. I have a good 40+ working in the Urals...

First go to like Kirov, or Orenburg... any city far from the Germans with excessive ammounts of naturally occouring plains squares. If the unit is a Labor Brigade, start "Build Industry" process. If it's a refugee, just fortify, or sleep/sentry him in the position he will be building. When they turn into Laborers, you want that first turn to having 40 Industries being built. Imagine the overall production increase 5 or 6 turns from then, when all those workers simultainiously build the square up into Industry!
Basically any Planes square in any city radius needs to be worked... but concentrate on building 5-7 squares of Industry for each city. So with the math, 45 Laborers/ 6 industry squares per city= 6 cities with tons and tons of prod.

There are cities that have three super-production squares like bauxite within the Ural Range... Seek these out and build farmland so as not to loose production when starvation from the winter sets in...

I had a few cities with 3 farmland squares, and all the rest were Industry. It's a bit of overkill, but it looks cool

I found 1.4 a bit harder, but I also stepped up a notch on the dificulty level. I lost Leningrad, Rostov, and Perkop which I hardly ever do. And After the battle of Kursk (Opperation Citadel), A pack of Tigers and Panthers and Wermarcht...(Oh My!) Made it into my soft Eastern area and took a city deep behind the lines. Wiped out Finland... it no longer exists. Invaded Northern Norway...made it half way down... Good overall game...
Good luck with your UMIP Komrade....

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	03-04-2000 01:48									#7
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ANZAC:
I am not sure this is what you were asking but the useless refugees are "future" laborers. As refugees they move fast but can't work but that will change when you load the first change of season in December 1941. After that they will move slowly but be able to work so the best to do is get them to where you want to use them by December.
I would add to FMK's suggestions: pick one or two new city sites to the East of Stalingrad where you have plenty of plain terrain and where the future T-34s will have a short trip to the front. I had 3 of my 5 best "shield" cities right there.

	03-04-2000 05:14									#8
	Put an end to popups!

What I wanted to ask was this: What cities are worth developing and how should one go about developing them. I have about 53 laborers and I'm working on building industries around Kirov, Sverdlovsk, Uralsk, Guryev, Chelyabinsk, Ufa, Kazan , and Zlatoust. Anything else I should do?

	03-04-2000 07:06									#9
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I think you are on the right track. There appears to be some players that are finding more "efficient" ways to win by using loopholes in the game... You are doing it the way I intended it to be done (The Historical way) It will take you until late 1942 before your efforts start paying off in the form of massive unit numbers.

I am amazed at the innovation that some have come up with: Building cities on top of fortified positions and Fortified batteries to be able to load them into freighters and transport them elsewhere to defend against the German advance... Very clever! and certainly allowed though not intended. I will make sure it can't be done in the next version...

Also disbanding certain units to circumvent the events that occur when those units are killed (However, if you have to look in the events files to devise your strategy, you are definitely cheating IMHO. Next they will note all the coordinates where German U-boats and reinforcements pop-up and station ships and troops there to prevent it from happening... might as well just edit out those pesky events to save the trouble)

I think that I will create a "Special" Red Front for those players... Fortified positions and batteries will be stationary helicopter units (No ship transport) and will convert into Red Army units by 1942 (No way to keep them past their intended lifespan).

	03-04-2000 11:05									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Hey Nemo, I just checked the German units in my June 1941 saved file. The German got 225 Weimarht, so I guess whether to disband my red army or not makes little difference. I'll not recommending that from now on.

The trick to prevent Karl to appear-- I'm using a 'sincere' way to do that. I can simply rename the cities to prevent the events to be triggered. But that's irrelavent now--the German can never get there.

I'm really itching in occupying Romania. If I can get the oil field of Romania, then I get a boost in economy and I can airlift the Iran convoys from the Caucasus (set home city there) to Romania, getting a huge trade bonus. This is definitely my top priority, and could be more efficient than building up the Ural Montains. Even if I lost two of the three major cities I can still win if the Caucasus and Romania are both mine. I suggest that in the next version you set some events to protect the Romania oil field during the first winter.

Changing fortified positions to helicopters is a good idea. But I can still put cities on top of them and gain advantages (for a limited time). Maybe you can lower their defense as well so the German troops will not be so 'chicken'.

Karl is not that tough if attacked by naval units. It is because that when a naval unit attacks a land unit, both units' fire powers are lowered to 1. So high FP doesn't help Karl -- One vet Cruiser can kill it on marsh/minefield, two can kill it on grass/plain.

	03-04-2000 20:23									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They were already supposed to be enormous advantages to the Soviet player, designed to prevent "deep penetration" into the Soviet back country. Before I added them, I had Wespes and Panzergrenadiers threatening Magnitogorsk and the cities near the Aral sea in early 1942!

I am very happy with you finding the loopholes... It will allow me to close them in future versions (Not to prevent you from having fun, but simply to make it a better game)(I am sure you will find new loopholes anyway).

	03-04-2000 22:53									#12
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I'm with you on this one Nemo. I'm no computer programmer, so I have no idea what all those 1's and0's are in the rules or pedia or whatever.
When I hook up some RedFront I want to battle the Germans, not the programing of the author! You have made this a unbelievable scenario...both historically accurate and quite challenging. There is no need to fake out the AI with tricky little schemes in order to win. What's the fun in that? If one were to listen to all the advice here at Apolyton regarding this scenario, one would have a very winable game, but would still get the felling of the struggle. By using the loopholes, you show your programmer mindset skills, not your tactical ones. No offense intended toward Xin, he obviously knows his tactical stuff and could kick my arse all over the place in MP. But taking advantage of glitches seems to me like an unfair way to beat the allready idiotic AI.(BTW Nemo, the AI is getting better as we go through the versions.)
I had no problem(yes I did ) defeating the Germans on my first try of 1.4
I even stepped up muy dificulty level from my normal one, yet the right strategy always prevails.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 03, 2000).]

	04-04-2000 01:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think it is great that Xin posts these ideas, since in the long run they give us better scenarios. His moving the fortifications idea is very clever! I picked a couple for founding cities, but it never occurred to me to put them on a ship. I really like Nemo's strategy for dealing with it, make it a helo and it will decay and can't ship - brilliant!

From a design standpoint it demonstrates that everyone be careful with SUPER defensive units. Nemo could also use the .bat files to make the forts decay/lose def & HP gradually in the rules. Without labor brigades - perhaps by starting them further west, the first several forts can't be moved before they are destroyed or encircled. Generally this also applies to high defense units used as impassible terrain. Some of the scenarios I have seen don't stack these terrain units, and they can be bribed very cheaply - if they are water adjacent they can be moved almost anywhere.

Back to the Front! I am thoroughly enjoying this game, my defense tactics center on stalling the capture of Minsk and Kiev while I construct defensive terrain traps behind their lines in river valleys. Also picking cities to burn in the path of Moscow, Leningrad and Sevestapole that would be used as staging areas like Narva and Luga, and pillaging fortresses and costly terrain road sections that are not on my counterattack path. I have only gotten through a couple of turns, and I have no idea if I will be able to survive or not, but this is AWESOME!!!

	04-04-2000 03:57									#14
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, I heard how all you have ideas to beat the game, but what to you do on the defensive? Ahh, that's what counts. I have this problem: if I hold Sefamovich and Voronezh, I still get Hummels running around the Trans-Urals threatening Saransk and Saratov and cities like that. Anyone have an idea to stop the Jerries from doing this (I don't want any programing cheats, if that's what you use!)? I do have the general idea on how to make a scenario and I have John Possidente's Scenario Building Guide, but that never gives as much as information as if to build a goliath like Red Front. Keep up the good work, Captain Nemo!! (BTW, dos anyone know where and when Austieg might be released?)

	04-04-2000 16:15									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The same happened to me the German AI sends out a few "scout" units ahead of the troops. The Hummels seem to be a favorite but in one game he used a "Karl" which really unnerved me... Suddently a Karl attacking Yaroslav!
The way I deal with it is having at least 3 Red Army units in each rear city so it won't fall immediately and then I use IL-2s to scout the path between my fortified cities in each turn even in the winter so very few Germans "sneak" through there.
The T34s, KV-1s and Katyushas continuously moving up from the rear usually are enough to deal with that occasional threat by making a little detour. Early in the game when units are scarce it's worse.

	04-04-2000 20:22									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nemo, I had the same thing at Yaroslav! watch out for those Karls!!!
I find that sending a few Siberian regiments into the lands NW of Kirov and fortifying them gives me great Ural security. You may loose one, but if you fortify them in the right pattern, you'll be able to counterattack on the next turn.
The only problem with this is that your Siberian guys may be needed elsewhere...
Decisions, decisions.....

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	04-04-2000 23:03									#17
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Has anyone else checked the hidden special pattern for defensive terrain? I started to work on it last evening, but I didn't get very far. Not to ruin anyone's fun, but several locations look very promising. Unfortunately coal mines don't give any defensive bonus over plains, and I think the readme may misstate the advantage of paper mills at +100% instead of the actual +50%, but kollectives are +100%....

	05-04-2000 00:31									#18
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Although I've found some loopholes in RF, I figure that in the next version those will disappear. And of course people can argue that I was not against the Germany, but against the designer.

Hence, I'm now working on a strategy which does not use any loopholes of the design. I will not attack Finland. I will not attack Germany or Romania from the sea-- I'll beat them straight forward.

I need to test my strategy and there's no guarantee it will work. However it looks pretty promising. I'll give the main tactics here. Your feedback is really appreciated (I found that my threads had few feedbacks, please give comments!)

There are two things I'm going to do.

First, I'll hire as many scientists as I can in each city (even let people starving), hoping that I can get KV-1 tech in July 1941 (that is: one turn per tech). Then I can produce KV-1's to defend my cities. The soviet had 90+ cities, could you believe it? If on the average there are 5 scientists per city, with library and university improvement, the total science will be
90*5*6=2700 per turn!

Second, I'll use chain-transportation to ferry my KV-1's and AA batteries to the front. They can reach the front in one turn on the southern and northern fronts.

I'm hoping that I only lose 5 or 6 cities including Minsk and Odessa, maybe Riga (after I can do something).

A minor thing is to take care of the Fins. Musmansk has airbase so I can airlift troops there. Other cities can use good terrians next to them that should not be a problem.

	05-04-2000 01:08									#19
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In addition:

I don't want to change the Caucasus cities' citizens to scientists. They give more science when they work.

KV-1 and AA battery really makes a pair. If they are both fortified and vet, KV-1 will be selected when there is a ground attack, and AA battery will be selected to defend from air raids.

	05-04-2000 01:46									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I did a big science rush on my first turn, about half of my cities were all scientists and with rush built refugees. You are right, the big refinery cities were better off with workers; even so I came up a little short on getting 1 per turn. I did get an advance in July, but I had gone for War Production, IIRC.

	05-04-2000 03:14									#21
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Just tested it. If I change all citizens to scientists, I got 3000+ sciences each turn. A tech is about 2700 and I have 1200 already there in June 1941. Definitely I can get KV1 tech in July. Then I set back science to chunk out KV1s and AA batteries. Need to rush-buy universities in Caucasus cities.

It looks like I can hold the line without much difficulty.

	05-04-2000 04:36									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I can't remember why I went with War Production - I was thinking it was Leo's but now I don't remember... getting too old.

How fast can you get to Leo's? And what upgrades to a KV1?? Anyone?

	06-04-2000 09:35									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sten,
If I'm not mistaken, in 1.4 the "Soviet Armament Industry" is Leo's. You will notice that it is allready there in Sverdlovsk at the start of the game.
There is no upgrade to KV1's, they will be upgraded themselves to JS2's when the time is right. But you must build the KV1's on your own.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	05-04-2000 22:09									#24
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T34-76 will upgrade to T34-85 in winter 1941 if you discovered advanced armor III. The slot of T34-76 is then used for later JS-2. If you don't discover the tech, then T34-76s will become JS2, but you don't get to build T34-85.

KV-1 is good in defense but slow. So I'll choose to build T34-85. It's just that the upgraded tanks are rockies. The upgrade is really a down grade. Laborors will be upgraded to labor brigades in 1943, but I probably will not wait that long.

In winter 1941 I build cities using the refugees then disband the cities. Gives me NONE labor brigades (works twice faster). That is my solution for having too many refugees eaten up my food reserve.

	05-04-2000 23:45									#25
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Captain Nemo: How about giving the Soviet a useless tech at the end of each session? This will force an upgrade and clear up the slots for new units. Of course it will be safer to leave a gap between one unit's obselete and another unit's appearence, as you already did.

	06-04-2000 01:29									#26
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I think an "event-given" tech does not trigger Leonardo's to run... but if it does it is a great idea.

I noticed that when "Labor Brigades" become available with a tech that is given by event in November 41, it doesn't trigger the "Engineer-New unit" window (which I customized to match Labor Brigades) But in the first version of RF, that tech was researched and it used to trigger the window... Somehow the program does not see technologies given by event the same way it sees those researched.

	06-04-2000 02:58									#27
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Thanks for the clarification - I was thinking that the King Richardsesque Wonder that comes with War Productivity was Leo's; FMK is right on - you already own it.

(that is what I get for posting from work without the game at hand)