07-09-2003 21:22									#1
	The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: The Man in the High Castle. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Because August was frenetically busy for me, I decided to take a month off from the discussion group and start it up again in September. Remember: next months book is The Dune Chronicles (the entire series, not just the first book).

Book: The Man in the High Castle
Author: Philip K. ****
Published: 1962

There are a few books that one reads that, even though you are quite capable of understanding the words, you can't make the sense of them, much less figure why this book is held in such high esteem by others. To me, the top book in this category is Ted Sturgeons More Than Human, which I thought was a complete waste - no ideas, all style, pretty full of boredom.

High Castle brought back a little of that feeling for me... though I've read the book twice since purchasing it, I'm still wondering: What's the point? Did anything actually happen in this book? Perhaps I'm too linear in my expectations, but still... just what was this book about? "Slice of life" stories are fine... as long as you can find an interesting slice of the life you're writing about.

I found his portrayal of the Japanese as the most rational and least emotive (and least racist!) of peoples to be almost laughable - while the Japanese are fine people, how PKD could not have been aware of their ability to go from wild Xenophobics to cultural assimilators and back is amazing. Had he not heard of the Nanking Massacre? Did he never look up the definition of the traditional Japanese word for foreigners, gaijin, which translates into, iirc, "foreign devils", i.e., if you're not Japanese you are, by default, a devil and not to be trusted. This is one of those things which sticks out so badly that my enjoyment of the rest of the book suffers by comparison.

I sent a PM to Drake seeing if he could give some insight into the Japanese mindset - hopefully, he'll participate (I have no idea if he has read the book).

Last edited by JohnT on 07-09-2003 at 21:37

	07-09-2003 21:26									#2
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This page has some good examples of the meaning of the word, both from Japanese peoples and foreigners. Here's a sample:

quote: I think the one time I was really upset was in Hawaii. Two Japanese were sitting next to me in a Sushi Shop and when I started to eat they said "Look, that Gaijin eats Sushi". Of course it was in Japanese and thought that this large Caucasion would never learn their language thus they felt safe saying that. I told them in no uncertain terms that I was born and raised in the USA thus I am an American and they were the Gaijins in the restaurant. Without any fanfare at all, they paid their bill and left without eating what they had ordered.

	07-09-2003 21:28									#3
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quote: There are a few books that one reads that, even though you are quite capable of reading the words, you can't make the sense of them, much less understand why this book is held in such high esteem by others. To me, the top book in this category is Ted Sturgeons More Than Human, which I thought was a complete waste - no ideas, all style, pretty full of boredom. High Castle brought back a little of that feeling for me... though I've read the book twice since purchasing it, I'm still wondering: What's the point? Did anything actually happen in this book? Perhaps I'm too linear in my expectations, but still... just what was this book about? "Slice of life" stories are fine... as long as you can find an interesting slice of the life you're writing about.

100% Agreed. I was reading the book and mainly looking for those rare lines of actual alternate history instead of the usual descriptions of people's lives.

	07-09-2003 23:30									#4
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Hell, I was just looking for a plot.

	08-09-2003 02:08									#5
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I read KSR's Years of Rice and Salt instead. Sue me.

	08-09-2003 02:17									#6
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo I read KSR's Years of Rice and Salt instead. Sue me.

I read both of them.

	08-09-2003 02:20									#7
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Well, my casual search didn't turn up a copy of **** and I had already bought the KSR.

	08-09-2003 02:24									#8
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Yeah, I didn't like it that much either. The style was too Turtledovey (over-rated, medicore writing) for my tastes. I stopped reading after the first 100 pages.

	08-09-2003 02:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Eli 100% Agreed. I was reading the book and mainly looking for those rare lines of actual alternate history instead of the usual descriptions of people's lives.

Likewise.

Do you want to know more? /st

PKD actually used that prediction technique his characters are using (I forgot what it was called) to decide what direction the plot takes

No wonder the book is such a mess.

Some of his characterisations are ok, but it is not enough to float this book. Alternate history is not of great quality either, instead, as already pointed out, there are some pretty wide holes in it.

At least he didn't make this book a three-tome epic or something, I read it pretty fast.

	08-09-2003 02:33									#10
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By the way, while we are in this genre; Turtledove's Ruled Britannia got some good critics. Supposedly his writing is much better than in his sequel ridden work.

	08-09-2003 02:33									#11
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The prediction technique was the I Ching.

	08-09-2003 02:36									#12
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I Ching my thing at that. How convincing is it for Americans to eagerly accept something like that? Whatever.

	08-09-2003 18:19									#13
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Bump. Did anyone like this book? How about Ajbera, who nominated it? Speak up, man!

	09-09-2003 18:08									#14
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Another bump.

Drake and I have been talking about the meaning of "ijin" and "gaijin" and he says (essentially) that the two words are not similar, they just look that way when translated to English. Otoh, I'm not the only one with this misperception as I've read the comparison elsewhere (which is how I remembered it for the OP).

	09-09-2003 18:20									#15
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Don't feel bad. I was trying to draw connections between the two words also, until my Japanese source wrote "ijin" down in kanji. It's really hard to comprehend the nuances of Japanese if you can't read the Chinese characters.

	09-09-2003 18:24									#16
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"Chinese" characters? Don't let your fellow Japanese see that!

	09-09-2003 18:29									#17
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"Hell, I was just looking for a plot."

There is a plot, and it is deeply rooted. I guess I'll have to be the books defender here. First, I think the writing style is much better than turtledove - I just kept turning the page for countless hours. Second, the book is about something - I think it's commentary on the very idea of alternate history itself. Is alternate history proper? Is it right? Are there really an infinite number of equally plausible universes, or is there really only one universe, where everything has happened as it has happened, and will happen as it will happen.

And if there is only one universe, what does this say about fate?

Also, I loved the characters. Oh well, whatever. Can't expect the swinish multitudes of apolyton to agree with everything I reccomend...

	09-09-2003 18:30									#18
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quote: "Chinese" characters? Don't let your fellow Japanese see that!

Uhh, John? The characters for the word "kanji" are "kan" (ancient China) and "ji" (letter) respectively. I think there's a good chance that the Japanese acknowledge where the characters came from.

	12-09-2003 17:07									#19
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quote: I sent a PM to Drake seeing if he could give some insight into the Japanese mindset

I don't really think I'm qualified to comment on "the Japanese mindset," but I'll give it a shot.

quote: I found his portrayal of the Japanese as the most rational and least emotive (and least racist!) of peoples to be almost laughable

For the record, I haven't read the book, so I don't have a great idea of what Dick's view of the Japanese was like. That being said, I think he has a point if he describes the Japanese as rational and non-emotive. I wouldn't call them the most rational and non-emotive of peoples, but they're certainly high on the list.

The non-emotive aspect of Japanese culture is quite noticeable when you live here, especially if you are around adult men. In Japan, with its almost maniacal focus on group harmony, it is considered childish to lose one's temper or make any comparable show of emotion that could effect group relations. The male teachers I work with demonstrate this well. I've been working with them for over a month and have yet to see any demonstration of what I would call a "strong" emotional response. They all have this poker face on all the time that makes it extremely difficult to gauge what they're feelings are. The only time that they really drop their guard is when they are drinking, which is the one activity in which it is socially acceptable to speak one's mind.

For example, I thought that the baseball coach didn't like me, as he was always very distant around me, but we all went out drinking last night and he couldn't have been nicer to me, talking to me and teaching me "lessons" about going out in Japan. However, once we were back at work today, it was back to the same old standoff-ish attitude.

This non-emotive behavior is most noticeable in adult males, but the women exhibit it as well, particularly in regards to negative emotions. The only ones who show what I would consider "normal" levels of emotion are the young men.

As for the "rationality" of the Japanese, that's a hard quality to really observe. I can see how Dick might consider them rational, however, as the social structure here requires a great amount of thinking to navigate properly. You always have to consider the social hierarchy here and adjust your behavior according to who you are dealing with. You also have to think about the best ways to get what you want, but in an indirect manner, as direct means of communication are shunned here.

The best way I can think of to describe this combination of rationality and non-emotiveness in the Japanese psyche is through an adage I picked up somewhere (source forgotten at the moment). The adage states that Japanese society is like a duck swimming on a lake; calm on the surface, but paddling like hell underneath. The non-emotive aspect of Japanese behavior maintains the "calm surface", the veneer of harmony that is so vital to good group relations. Meanwhile, the rationality of the Japanese is honed in the hidden but very real struggle to improve one's lot in the society, the underwater "paddling."

Is that what you were looking for, John? I could write some more on the other topics you brought up, if you want.

edit: Be careful what you ask for, however. A discussion of Japanese "racism" and its Confucian roots could end up many times longer than this monster post.

	12-09-2003 19:00									#20
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I thought this book wasn't as good as some of ****'s other offerings. It was interesting to see how life would have been different under those circumstances but the trek for the Man in the High Castle seemed anticlimatic. I may have to read it again to fully appreciate it because I couldn't help but be disappointed that nothing happened, nobody fought back. Maybe that was the spirit he was trying to catch?

	15-09-2003 03:22									#21
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I'd like to request the Neal Stephenson's
The Diamond Age be put on the discussion list for some time in the near future.

	15-09-2003 03:27									#22
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=96729

The way the group works is this:

I start a nomination thread where people can list a book to vote for in an upcoming election (the above thread is for November nominations).

Then, after all nominations are in, I start a voting thread (multiple choice, please limit yourself to three votes) where people can vote on which book to read (The November voting thread will probably start later this week). When that's done, I'll start the discussion thread on or around the first of the month so we can trash the book and make the nominator feel like a putz for wasting our time.

Next months book(s) are The Dune Chronicles. If you want to nominate the Stephenson book, please click on the above link and post the nomination there. Thanks!

	15-09-2003 05:08									#23
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How in god's name am I goin to read the entire Dune Series and still get good grades???

	15-09-2003 05:09									#24
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I just read the first... screw the rest .

	15-09-2003 06:29									#25
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How far does JohnT want you guys to read? He surely isn't going to make you read Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune is he? That's just cruel...

	15-09-2003 06:37									#26
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The whole series is up for discussion, though the emphasis will be on the first book. I selected the whole set because I didn't want to worry about spoilers.

And Chapterhouse and Heretics were pretty good books!

	15-09-2003 06:39									#27
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quote: And Chapterhouse and Heretics were pretty good books!

If you say so...