08-09-2003 00:24									#1
	Comparisons of Diplomatic Style: RP vs. ISDG Increase Your PM Length

As most (not all) of the ISDG FAM people have been mostly responsible for setting Diplomatic Policy on team RP AND with having several references to "agressive" (and other words) style of diplomacy, It comes a time to try to establish what is fully meant by those statements and the reasons for those points of veiws.

The reason that I feel that this needs to be examined and possibly addressed is so that we, the ISDG team, do not make the same kinds of mistakes. We don't need to have this kind of reputation, even if it's because of knowledge of the PTWDG ingame events and persons behind them.

This needs to be discussed, IMHO.

E_T

	08-09-2003 02:55									#2
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, E_T!

I think it definitely helps a lot that a member of RP calls for this discussion. And I wholeheartedly agree that we should do our best to avoid the mistakes that lead RP into the current dire situation (no need to comment on how much dire it is - meant figuratively). Although, I do not really believe we are "in danger" of doing the same mistake here in ISDG...

I will start with something I hope the "adressee" will understand the way I mean it - as a honest "outsider" view (and, to an extent, as a compliment) and not as a personal insult or an attempt to belittle him.

Togas, your temper is just horrible.

Precisely said, your temper in PtWDG is just horrible. Does not make sense? Well... it no longer applies to ISDG, I would say. With the single exception of the opening fiasco about "let's catch the CDG guys lying", I have to express my utmost respect for the way you are running our FAM in ISDG. Whenever you post here about our diplomacy and about what we should do and how, I have to think "wow, this is something, I could not have said it better". Whenever you take your time and think an issue over, whenever you get your thoughts organized prior to acting, you act top-class.

Alas... this does not apply for "live action" - for chats. I'm speaking out of my own experience in PtWDG now (and also, to an extent, about the initial CDG talks). You will probably remember we had several chats months ago - as the leaders of Lego and RP. Well, you have the unfortunate tendency to make the other party feel "attacked" (as in "feel guilty for something" - much like with what happened with CDG and their lies). I'm guessing it may relate to your RL job - IIRC, you work with young people that have troubles with law. I can imagine it is a good tactics to pick the right moment and "exert pressure" on them, making them realize they screwed something - if the moment really is right, I'd believe they "crumble" and begin to "cooperate".

But... "negotiating" with a leader of another team is a completely different business. By trying to push things in the direction of "you did something wrong and I am angry with you for that (read: you should do your best to fix what you did wrong to make me happy again)" simply does not work here. As ridiculous as it may sound, you are - at that moment - speaking to the leader of a sovereign nation. Posing as "angry" or "offended" never yields any advantage - it always just cools relations down and pits the other party against you (speaking "emotional/irrational"). No matter how much the other side insulted you during the talks (or how much you think you were insulted), no matter how angry you are with them, you have to keep the kind/polite face on and keep talking. Since it is not you talking at that moment, it is the representative of a team talking. One's personal feelings at that moment are irrelevant. There is a job to get done and anger will never help to get it done (and this applies both ways - if you let yourself to express anger, it is as useful as if you make the other party angry unnecessarily).

Now... this is very strange from my point of view... but - as I said: I no longer feel/see the problem in the ISDG. Dunno why, but with that single exception with CDG in the very beginning, I haven't noticed you doing this mistake any time again here in ISDG. And yet... when you (and BigFree, I think) came to us (Lego), asking for whatever help we could provide you with against GoW and ND, you started with scolding us off for not warning you in advance about the attack (as if we had known about it... all we knew was that ND planned or expected something they wanted Lego to stay away from). Even if we did know and really did not warn you - you came to ask for help. So... what benefit scolding us off (and that was how I felt) could have brought? It just made us less willing to invest in a cause that did not really look promising...

Please - do not take this as an attempt to say: "Togas, you suck!" Not at all. Rather: "Togas, you screwed in PtWDG big time." I can see that you have learnt your lesson - especially the CDG fiasco in ISDG seemed to have taught you a lot, since I strongly feel you are now doing your best to control your temper - and with a lot of succes, I would say.

Finishing my Togas-focused part of the post... maybe the whole RP setup for this game, with one almighty ruler and everyone else just licking his boots (deliberately exaggerating here) just made it easier for that ruler to slip... kinda expecting a similar level of "servility" even from non-RP people (pardon the servility expression - came to my mind because of a couple of comments/lines RP members made entering chatrooms where Togas was as their ruler).

But it would be a horrible injustice to blame everything on Togas and his difficult to control chat-temper. At least I believe it would. After all, those were more or less "personal" grudges that - even if reflecting in the subconscious "attitude" towards another team (as the chatlogs get posted in team forums) - were not enough to steer the general direction towards or away from RP.

The really big deal was the approach RP took regarding trades. I understand they may have considered that "negotiating from the position of power". But what it really was - an ongoing effort to screw the other party (or parties). Honestly - Lego has never felt we would have been offered a fine deal by RP. And consequently, we made only a single (!) deal in the whole game... is it not shocking?

When you are trying to make a deal with another party, you always have to keep in mind there are TWO parties making the deal. "You" and "them". Obviously, it's "you" you care more about. But if you don't care about "them" at all, you are actually doing harm to "you", too, even if it does not seem so obvious. If you are lucky, you get your deal - but leave the other party with a feeling of injustice or unfair treatment (the whole PtWDG Writing affair seems of this kind to me - but I admit I have only third-hand information about it...).

If you are not lucky, you do not get your deal - but still leave the other party with the same feeling of injustice and unfair treatment (case of Lego). Do it once... and they will become cautious. Do it twice... and they will become wary. Do it thrice... and they will likely start to think how to get rid of you.

Because - if another team is not a good trading partner, what benefit is keeping them around? If you screw or keep screwing one team, it may be a well thought out way to provoke them into a (desired) war. But if you do this to more (or even every other) teams, then you are just begging to become THE target.

So - what's the solution? Dunno how it correctly sounds in English, but one of the very basic rules of a successful business is: "Make money - and let make money." Means that if you want to have a prosperous and long-lasting business, you have to let your trading partners make money - not only make money yourself. Making money yourself works short-time only.

In Civ-terms... set your goal. Think of how to achieve that. Think of what the other party might need. Think of what might make the other party happy striking the deal with you. Try to "balance" trades (we do not want to look "weak", do we?) with something that is of little value to the other party, but of a great value to you. And finally... if you happen to get into a position to screw the other party, do NOT abuse the situation and still honor the original deal - but let your partner decently know you are doing him a favour.

Make sure you achieve your goals - but do not try to make "as much as possible" out of every deal or every tech you have. Make deals that make the other parties happy. Ultimately, teams that are happy dealing with you, are the last teams that attack you.

BE GENEROUS. If you can afford it, BE GENEROUS. If you cannot afford it or do not want to be generous, BE AT LEAST REASONABLE.

RP was never generous (to Lego). RP was never even reasonable, always trying to squeeze ridiculously much from every deal (no need to argue - I'm just voicing the feelings of "the other side" here...).

I am fully aware of that particular things that happened in PtWDG and lessons learned there are difficult to apply in ISDG. But the principles remain the same.

Do we need to be in one bed with CFC? At least until we crush GCA to ashes? Fine, so let's keep that in mind! Does it mean selling them a crucial government tech cheap? So be it! They have to feel it is better to stick to us than make peace with GCA. Do they have only half the gold we would deem appropriate for Republic? Who cares? If it is, say, 50% or 75% of their gold reserve, meant for upgrades and stuff like that - does it mean they do not value Republic properly? Hell, no! They are giving us all (or "all") they have - and we should understand it that way.

Especially with trading partners you know are weaker than you, do not be afraid of giving them fine (read: a bit lopsided in their favour) deals. You will regain your lead again, no worries about them catching up "too easily" at your expense.

Not sure if all this makes sense - often, I have left the very example/event I have had in mind describing this or that, because I have felt it would be too much of a spoiler for PtWDG. But believe me, there is a real PtWDG event behind every paragraph of this post.

I just hope I am not going to start any flamewars here. Keep in mind, please, that wherever I say something like "RP insulted Lego", I do not mean they really insulted us (or meant to insult us). Rather, we (Lego) felt insulted - and that's what this thread was meant to be about, I hope.

When you insult or piss someone off, it does not really matter if you wanted to. The harm is done. An apology will never return you back to the moment before the thing happened.

	08-09-2003 03:17									#3
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RP Diplomacy and ISDG Diplomacy

The thing that is often lost when discussing the success of diplomatic efforts here is that many people seem to have the rather naive notion that diplomacy is often capable of convincing the other guy to forgo his own perception of his own interests. This is rarely the case. Using the other guy's perception of his own interests to suggest mutually favorable courses of action can work, but rarely will standing in the way of his interests (even if you're nice about it) work. Ultimately, when you stand in the path of the other guy's interests (as he defines them), you are welcoming conflict. The only thing that will prevent conflict in such a case is if the other guy thinks he can't take you in a fight or he's one of those guys who's not as attached to his own interests as he is to his emotions (these people can be easily taken advantage of).

This is the reason why RP and ND ended up at war. ND is a very shrewd and calculating team. It had little to do with the nature of the diplomatic communication itself, which was polite and civil during the entire history of the two teams to my knowledge, even at the time of the declaration of war. The reason why ND attacked RP is painfully simple: their perception of their own interests included an insistence that the lands of what became northwestern Spain were essential to ND's own success. No amount of playing nice, being polite, or giving favorable trade deals was going to disuade them. The only thing disuading them was the inherent risk of war. When the risk of war reduced to a point where ND felt it had a high chance of victory, the only thing preventing them from attacking earlier was removed and they attacked.

Both ND and RP knew this and have known it for a very long time. I would even go so far as to say that ND probably knew that we knew it and we knew that ND knew it. RP was aware, even from early in the game, that claiming "cow valley" and lands West was a high stakes gamble, one that could pay off very well, but would only pay off if we could remain strong enough to prevent an invasion by ND.

So if there is a fault to RP's strategy, is was not in the way in which diplomacy with ND itself was handled, but in the impact of the gamble itself, an on-board action.

The diplomacy between Glory of War and Roleplay team is another issue and one I will freely admit was the principle reason for what has ended up taking place. With the knowledge that ND would likely invade Spain at the first opportunity, keeping Glory of War and/or Lux Invicta as a balancer against the power of ND was of fundamental importance to RP diplomacy.

What poisoned relations between RP and GoW was a stupid incident over an exploring warrior unit early in the game. I will be the first to admit that this entire incident was positively silly and both I and others on RP argued that to both Togas and at least one or two members of Glory of War at the time. Both RP team and GoW ("Team GhengisFarb" at the time) were being absolutely silly and throwing a perfectly good (and sensisble) alliance down the drain over something INCREDIBLY petty. I have mentioned before that this was the point in Spanish history where Togas came closest to being deposed (though I suppose there is a recent exception when BigFree started an actual coup vote against Togas).

That one stupid and petty incident flew so far out of hand that Panzer32 was accusing Togas of being Hitler, god only knows what was being said on the GoW internal forum, and at least half of RP Team wanted to skin GhengisFarb alive. As I aruged at the time, the potential benefits of an alliance betwen GoW and RP team were so powerful that it was sheer stupidity to let a petty incident like that get in the way - stupidity by BOTH GoW AND RP. Many on RP Team lament the fact that GhengisFarb had to be the Emperor of Glory of War at the time (myself included), but RP's handling of that situation was part of the problem as well. It was essential, for the interests of both teams, that cooler heads prevail and that both teams be willing to give a little for a suitable compromise that would resolve the petty dispute. The fact that this did not happen permanently poisoned RP-GoW relations.

Once the damange was done, the damage was done. I was first and foremost among those calling for the destruction of Glory of War in the long-term. Not because I thought the in-game situation called for their destruction, but because I knew we could never trust them and they would never trust us, making them particularly poor long-term partners unless stupid old problems were at some point laid to rest. I recall that I and others argued that it was essential to RP interests for the coming war on Bob to be ND and Lux versus GoW rather than any other combination. Our diplomats tried to convince Lux Invicta that GoW was the better target and that Lux Invicta should team up with ND against GoW, but that effort failed (in large part because Lux Invicta had already picked out ND as a target and then they pissed ND off, closing the opportunity for an alliance).

When Lux Invicta went down, we knew we were in a very lousy situation. ND still had their sights on our land and GoW loathed our very existence.

Since that time, efforts have been made to patch up relations between RP and GoW, most of which I hear failed outright before GhengisFarb was deposed. Part of the problem was that the possibility of patching up relations was seen as so remote by both parties (it seems) that both gave up on the attempt and instead worked at every opportunity to outmanuever the other party in technology trading, among other things. This accounts of GoW's perception that RP diplomacy is "aggressive", as its aggressiveness was based upon a loss of hope that being nice would have any positive return when it came to Glory of War.

When I came back to my team only about 2-3 months ago (just weeks before the Bobian War broke out), it was clear that the team still had long since lost hope of having a genuinely friendly relationship with GoW. I didn't believe it was possible, either, to be genuinely FRIENDLY, but I wanted to try to at least see if an alliance based upon mutual interest was possible. GoW was clearly closed to this idea, since they had both already gone too far ahead with the plan to strike down RP Team (bone-crushing momentum...) and their team is one for which their emotional attachments (at least for many on the team) played heavily into their perception of their own interests. RP Team was clearly working to disadvantage them and the option of killing RP Team (and helping ND become the premier world power) seemed more reasonable to them than co-opting RP Team (and preventing ND from becoming the premier world power).

In terms of ISDG diplomacy, I'd make the following recommendations:

1. Determine what the team sees as its fundamental interests and its path to long-term success. It's unalterable interests.
2. Determine the extent to which the team is narrow-minded about their fixation upon these interests or whether their interests (these or less important ones) are more maleable.
3. Determine the extent to which emotional factors play into the team's perception of friends and enemies and whether their perception of their own interests is highly maleable or non-maleable from the influence of these factors.
4. Determine the extent to which our perception of our intersts coincide or conflict with theirs.
5. Determine how much room for wheeling and dealing exists.
6. Determine, based upon all of the above, whether it is POSSIBLE for both sides to accept (medium or long term) the pursuit of the other team's interests. If it IS possible, medium or long term partnership is possible and probably SHOULD be pursued. If not, there's no point in wasting time pursuing it unless the other team can be successfully duped into believing that the former is possible when it is not.

Right now, I'd say that Apolyton-GCA relations have a distinct similarity to RP-ND relations from earlier in the PTWDG. Our interests clearly make it so that we cannot accept GCA's current position if we have the means to topple them. The only thing preventing us from attacking them is the risk that war entails... and we are waiting for the exact point at which we feel that risk is at a minimum. GCA is not as stupid as some seem to believe. They realize this, that Apolyton's interests and GCA's interests at this point are fundamentally non-reconcilable, even in the medium term. No amount of playing nice is likely to work with them nor no amount of them playing nice with us is likely to work on us. The dispute is far more fundamental than whether we cheat each other on technology trading deals.

As for GWT, we do not yet know the answer to many of the things we need to determine in my list above, but we know (from the behavior of ND) the answer to #3 and part of the answer to #1. ND/GWT is a shrewd and calculating team. Furthermore, ND/GWT seems to have a tendency to become very set in what their intersts are and not alter that perception. They perceive other teams as friends or enemies based upon the extent to which they stand in the way or help with ND/GWT's own interests. I can imagine that whatever team(s) GWT is conquering on the other continent might even have been very nice and polite to ND, but it wouldn't matter if ND saw their land as valuable, them as a threat, and believed they could get away with the conquest.

As for GWT relations with OUR continent, there are no easy answers yet on that. We need to determine:
1. What their interests are
2. The extent we stand in the way of those interests or not
3. Whether we might be able to befriend them by helping them with those interests
4. Whether we WANT to help them with those interests we can help them with (whether friendship is worth the price)

	08-09-2003 03:24									#4
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Very well said Vondrack
Edit: Well said as well Arnelos.

Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 08-09-2003 at 03:29

	08-09-2003 03:27									#5
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Arnelos, that's a very good summary of RP/GoW/ND relations and diplomacy - and an excellent parallel drawn between RP/ND and Poly/GCA.

I, too, believe that a war between RP and ND was inevitable, no matter what - the real failure of the RP diplomacy was that GoW joined ND against you and not the other way round.

	08-09-2003 03:30									#6
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Well you know I was just thinking wouldn't it be better if Togas didn't handle GWT due to the fact that ND and Spain are at war?

	08-09-2003 03:30									#7
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Ok, I'd like a chance to reply to Vondrack, since I was the RP ambassador to Legoland many months ago before we had actual contact.

In terms of when *I* was ambassador to your team, I seem to recall that I made sure to give you guys all sorts of goodies free of charge and even convinced my team to give you guys a minimap of how to best contact civs on Bob (ourselves and Glory of War).

I got along with Nimitz quite splendedly because of our positions in the SPDG and RP-Lego relations were nothing less than good for almost the entire early game. Quite frankly, Lego was the ONE TEAM that RP Team was willing to go out of its way to help if it might mean a good parternship down the road.

That the same did not continue later in the game I know nothing about because I was not there.

But the line that RP Team never did anything for Lego is utter bullsh*t and something I take offense to. I friggin' went out of my way to feed you guys information about what was taking place on Bob, talking early in the game about what wonders we should avoid building because you guys wanted them (and not even getting techs out of you for it!), and generally trying to keep up the early agreement between our teams that we should be allies.

This was based upon a firm argument pre-game that Lego and RP had stronger reason to trust one another because we were the only teams in the entire game who didn't seem intent on invading our neighbors the moment the opportunity presented itself. If both our teams survived, there was a chance for long-term *stability* in global relations and the conflict of nations could conceivably be decided by a builder type of victory rather than a conquest or domination victory.

If this was lost in later relations, it's not my fault

The point is that the statement "RP Team was never generous to Lego" is utter and complete bullsh*t. I can understand why you'd FORGET about earlier history if the grand scheme of later history was far from nice, but I'm here to remind you that that earlier history DID take place.... I was there.

	08-09-2003 04:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Ok, I'd like a chance to reply to Vondrack, since I was the RP ambassador to Legoland many months ago before we had actual contact. In terms of when *I* was ambassador to your team, I seem to recall that I made sure to give you guys all sorts of goodies free of charge and even convinced my team to give you guys a minimap of how to best contact civs on Bob (ourselves and Glory of War). I got along with Nimitz quite splendedly because of our positions in the SPDG and RP-Lego relations were nothing less than good for almost the entire early game. Quite frankly, Lego was the ONE TEAM that RP Team was willing to go out of its way to help if it might mean a good parternship down the road.

I will agree that prior to ingame contact, the relations were very good - and most of what we knew about the outer world came from chats Nimitz had with you and Togas. Trying to be strictly neutral here, not considering your motives, this was probably generous of you. At least, it did help us a bit with our overall strategy.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos But the line that RP Team never did anything for Lego is utter bullsh*t and something I take offense to. I friggin' went out of my way to feed you guys information about what was taking place on Bob, talking early in the game about what wonders we should avoid building because you guys wanted them (and not even getting techs out of you for it!), and generally trying to keep up the early agreement between our teams that we should be allies.

We're speaking well pre-ingame-contact here. There was no way to get anything in return for an arrangement on "waiving" specific wonders. Besides, we have never came to any agreement regarding this. The issue was mentioned, but the idea never came to fruition.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos The point is that the statement "RP Team was never generous to Lego" is utter and complete bullsh*t. I can understand why you'd FORGET about earlier history if the grand scheme of later history was far from nice, but I'm here to remind you that that earlier history DID take place.... I was there.

In all respect, Arnelos, it's not bullsh*t (whatever the asterisk stands for... ). I did my best to point out I was expressing the feelings of Lego - not how things actually were.

Yes, speaking information and early game, the RP team was the one closest and most firendly to us. Alas, that changed big time once we made contact with the outer world. And you admit that it might have been easy to forget. Well, yes, it was.

And... come to think of it... I believe the time when Lego crossed the ocean to Bob/GoW was where our relations started to sour.

For some reason, you (not sure if it was "RP" or "Togas" there) were sort of angry you were not the first civ we met. But that was something that simply happened. We first intended to send our galley in the counter-clockwise direction around Legos, because we did not know about Mystery Isle (aka Baby Bob), believed there was no crossing to GoW, and knew there was a crossing to RP only in the far South. Circumnavigating our landmass in the counter-clockwise direction was only several turns longer then sailing straight to the crossing point - and there was still hope that we would find a crossing to Vox/GS in the NW/N (while we "knew" that after contacting you in the far South, we would be many turns from everyone else - we had all the 4000BC minimaps at that time).

To be really honest here, we were not all that keen on meeting others ASAP at that point - because we had a grand plan devised that was centered around building Great Library before making any contacts (it later ended up as The Pyramids), possibly coupled with The Great Lighthouse to allow the much needed contact - because we miscalculated regarding the possible crossing points between Bob and Legos.

Then, at one point, GoW claimed to be seeing our coastline from a certain point of their territory - and planning to launch their galleys to there. We knew it was impossible for them to see our coast - but one of our members (cannot remember now who it was) went through old saves and checked again the ones where our exploring warrior was mapping the Northern part of Legos Minor (it is almost entirely mountains). Using a modded tileset (Snoopy's graphics?), he spotted something that looked like an edge of a coastal tile - something we missed altogether. It later turned out to be coastal waters of the Mystery Isle/Baby Bob.

We then decided to go in the clockwise direction with our galley - as we had a reasonable chance of finding a crossing almost "round the corner". And even if not, we would sail on to the crossing point in the South. One of the reasons of changing our plans was we no longer felt we hade "time enough" to find the others. There was, all of a sudden, a real threat of becoming the discovered/contacted...

You know the rest of the story - we were lucky and found a crossing to GoW. Their initial "catch-up" deal was a generous one - and we agreed we would withdraw our galley (we had a lot to explore in other parts of the world at that time, not having the whole of Legos mapped out) in exchange for a very good tech deal and all the contacts.

I guess the fact that it was GoW we met first and traded with first added a lot to the "anger" Togas expressed in the chats that followed up.

	08-09-2003 08:28									#9
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quote: Panzer32 was accusing Togas of being Hitler

Just as a clarification for personal reasons:

1. This was in an official reply from the GoW team. I may have been the one who sent it but that does not mean it was necessarily from myself.

2. We never explicitly called Togas Hitler. We did say that he was performing diplomacy as Hitler did before WWII. Take this as you want.

	08-09-2003 09:20									#10
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This thread is an absolute waste of energy and focus.

The Roleplay Team in the PTWDG is not and was not some sort of great diplomatic braintrust. I don't know why that perception continues. Arnelos missed most of the game and the major decisions and diplomacy here in ISDG is done very cooperatively between myself and many other non-RP people (BigFree and WB were recruited late to RP due mostly to their being friends). The RP team is, for the most part, a group of guys who tried to create a story around the game, add some interesting politics and history, and who enjoyed getting into roles within the game. Any opinions that we were "the best" in diplomacy was probably just us trying to feel good about our lack of skill in most of the other areas of the game.

Perhaps the only area we really excelled in was in being creative and thinking "outside the box" with regards to relations. Some of our ideas worked, some didn't.

It's obvious, and I don't see the point in bringing this subject out and inviting long diatribes by people who clearly "know better." I didn't read the post by Vondrack or Arnelos. I have very little interest in doing so. Nor will I likely read anyone else's long diatribes and lectures about what RP did. Why?

1) RP is not ISDG. RP diplomacy is not ISDG diplomacy. Thinking such things is just dumb.

2) I abhor the notion that I am dumb enough to not learn from my own mistakes, and get aggrevated when people continue to bring them up. Furthermore, I don't need to be patted on the back for learning from my own mistakes, thank you.

3) I don't go off on "what other teams did wrong" sort of self-rightous discussions -- and you know I could -- because it's mostly subjective, and because you can do everything right (or wrong) and still end up with a bad (or good) outcome given the utter randomness and unpredictability of humanity. So drawing conclusions based on such very limited examples and experiences (most of which do not contain enough common factors with our current situation) is ultimately pointless.

But feel free to continue to speculate, analyze, and draw "meaningful" conclusions from things you think I did in another game. Just don't get offended when I find such a thread to be personally offensive. Just reading that Nuclear Master thinks that I shouldn't be involved in any diplomacy with GWT due to this thread utterly p*sses me off. And then I get to relive such fun things like being called Hitler without being explicitly called Hitler just adds to my joy.

Thanks alot, ET, for starting this thread.

--Togas

	08-09-2003 09:31									#11
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Togas: Excellent post.

Regarding everyone else... :sigh: This thread is going to turn into nothing but a flamefest. Let it die for the reasons Togas mentioned.

	08-09-2003 09:43									#12
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Agreed. This thread is not going to create anything productive. As a member of the FAM, and also NOT a member of RP, I can say that, from my point of view, the diplomatic situation in this game is not being handled like the PTWDG, and thus comparisons should not be drawn.

	08-09-2003 09:44									#13
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack And... come to think of it... I believe the time when Lego crossed the ocean to Bob/GoW was where our relations started to sour.

That happens to be when I left. Like I said, I remember RP-Lego relations being absoultely peachy, downright sappy in fact, up to the point when I left.... when I got back several months later, I honestly wondered what the hell had gone wrong.

That said, I can sorta understand how it might have happened from what you've said. The written treaty RP and Lego had concerning technology trading was obviously interpreted by RP Team differently to how it was interpreted by Lego. It seems to me that Lego's perception of being taken advantage of is largely due to how they reacted in retrospect to what RP felt they had agreed to and signed into treaty.

Looking back on that, I'd have to say that perhaps treaties of the kind that RP and Lego signed should not include clauses like the technology one that was written. It apparently created more bad blood than it was worth... or at least that's the impression I'm getting from you, vondrack. Perhaps something other than that clause would have worked out better... something to keep in mind for future multiplayer DG's.

	08-09-2003 09:57									#14
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Well, I won't argue about this whole deal, all I can say is that for some reason or another, we seem to act much more professionally in the ISDG than we do in the PTWDG. Perhaps we take this much more as a "job" than a game since the stakes are so much higher not only to our personas but to our site.

Regardles of what I may think of RP's diplomacy in the PTWDG. I honestly think Togas and the rest of the FAM gang have done an admirable job here with the ISDG, and I beg to differ with vondrack that things with CDG could have been any better during the start. CDG was a tough nut at first, and in the end our reputation of being a trustworthy, neutral neighbor instead of countering their provocations with more provocations payed off immensely.

For me, it is an honor to share diplomatic duties with such a talented team of people.

	08-09-2003 09:59									#15
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...or maybe all the FAM needed was a GoWer in its ranks to balance things out...

	08-09-2003 14:55									#16
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After having some sleep, waking up, and giving the issue another thought, I am afraid I might have done better not posting - or at least leaving out parts of my post. Too late. Sorry for that.

I made one major omission which Master Zen correctly pointed out in his post. To put in a nutshell what I should have said in my post in a better way, perhaps (or what I failed to say completely):

1) the "lessons" learned from PtWDG do not seem easily applicable to ISDG - at least they haven't been easily applicable to ISDG for the most of the game...

2) whatever might have been done wrong (in my eyes) in the beginning of ISDG, was later fixed in an amazing way by our FAM lead by Togas - that's what I failed to acknowledge

3) our current foreign policy and the current FAM team has my full support

	08-09-2003 16:31									#17
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I am considering getting the other Consuls to agree to an outright embargo on PtWDG matters in this forum. Whatever the good reasons behind this thread (and I am certain, from those who kicked off the idea that there were naught but good intentions), they inevitably end up in some offense, flaming (intentional or no) or the simmering of near-flaming. I feel strongly on some matters brought up here too, and I am RP, but I am going to, for the sake of keeping the ISDG sacrosanct, shut myself the hell up.

Let us keep such discussion to the PtWDG forum, where there are threads dedicated to analysing such situations, and where it is appropriate to do so. Let us put aside outside concerns, as we have shown we can. As I see it there is currently no basis for such a thread from actions within this game. If there is ever a concern from within this game about actions within this game, then threads here are valid.

Let this be the end of it, and this thread. I would close it if I could, but I temporarily lack the spellZ. I hope everyone can appreciate this feeling.

Cheers.

	08-09-2003 17:11									#18
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It would be an absolute disgrace to ban PTWDG discussions within the ISDG forum.

The whole idea of the PTWDG was to practice against each other in preparation of the ISDG. To use what we learnt…what worked and what didn’t.

I was planning on posting up my own impressions of RP diplomacy, but now have to trash the whole lot in fear that someone somewhere might take offence. If we cannot discuss the merits or mistakes made by teams in a rational non-aggressive discussion, then we lose one of our teams biggest advantages.

Look at this thread

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...256#post1744256

In it, Togas uses GoW diplomacy as an example of tactic’s that are “utterly irresponsible.” (I am talking about the Hitler remark).
He claims that “Negotiating from Strength” is a valid tactic and that I and other GoW members were less astute in identifying that he had the upper hand and we should of just sucked eggs.

Yet when a thread is posted discussing RP diplomacy and what went wrong, the same man posts

“This thread is an absolute waste of energy and focus.” and then is backed up by a few posts and now a consul who now wants to ban all talk of the PTWDG

I have a game face in the PTWDG and enjoy the trash threads (Both posting & reading).
However, I also have an analytical side that is willing to discuss in a rational way what worked and what didn’t within the PTWDG teams. For the benefit of winning this ISDG.

Sorry .. I am just peeved and disappointed that we can’t discuss this in an adult analytical way.

And for the record… Togas has done a superb job within the ISDG (first CDG contact excluded) and I don’t think anyone could have done a better job.

{Edit} : -

So I have walked away for an hour, calmed down, and reread all of the above.
I think MWIA is not wanting to ban all PTWDG discussion ... just the ones that he feels are flame threads and have no benifit within the ISDG.

Well ...the benefit of a thread such as this ...
The same reason why Togas wrote what he felt Lux did wrong that caused their destruction.
The same reason why Togas identified the mistakes made by GoW
The same reason why Trip wrote what went wrong with the Vox campaign against GS.

It insures everyone in the ISDG learns from PTWDG mistakes.. not just the teams who made them.

Last edited by Hot_Enamel on 08-09-2003 at 18:17

	08-09-2003 21:25									#19
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It's a tough call to say whether this thread has merit or should be in the ISDG forum. On one side lessons learned, from everyones perspectives, are different ones. On the other you have the makings for a flame fest.

If (and a big IF) we can discuss this like adults with little or no belittling going on, then it might serve a purpose to help out this team.

Who's perfect? Not me. So noone else should make that claim either. Also, noone should make any other claims abouts others faults. If there's a point to be made, make it without first having to dredge up stories about the PTWDG. If you cannot make your point without pointing to what you feel is the fault of another, then don't make your point. Keep it to yourself unitl you can figure out how to do it. If you need help, PM a friend to have them help you come up with something. But to constantly drudge up bad/old feelings from the PTWDG is not going to do us much good here. But, posting solutions and/or suggestions on how to handle things in this game will.

Is it possible to suggest a policy for this game based upon what you felt was a failed one in the PTWDG without actually mentioning names or teams from the PTWDG and then also being able to rationalize your argument to get it supported for this game? Yes, it is. It may take some work, but it can be done.

	08-09-2003 22:12									#20
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No offense to anyone, but I think we should just grow up nad learn to discuss these things in the open. I think banning all PTWDG discussion here is a disgrace since the PTWDG was meant to be practice for the ISDG.

What I feel is some people seem hesitant to be pointed out the mistakes they made or were percieved to have made in the PTWDG, and discussing them in an analytical and non-flame sort of way. No matter what you say people will always take offense at certain things which is proof to me that some people aren't as mature and serious as they claim to be. On the other hand not mentioning names or teams defeats the whole purspose of this analysis and is truly irrelevant since people will know who it is they're talking about anyway.

On another note, I have now heard two people thinking our position with CDG at first was "wrong" yet neither of the two have said why they felt that. Can you both please elaborate for the sake of figuring out if it was a mistake and if so how to correct it?

	08-09-2003 22:31									#21
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I think that warnings should be given if it appears that a flame-fest is arising. However, let's be fair - when Lux was eliminated and Vox nearly was eliminated, they also had their own threads where we analysed their tactics, mistakes and things to avoid doing.

I think that would be fine to do for RP too - though let's do it dispassionately for a view towards helping us out in the ISDG.

	08-09-2003 22:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen On another note, I have now heard two people thinking our position with CDG at first was "wrong" yet neither of the two have said why they felt that. Can you both please elaborate for the sake of figuring out if it was a mistake and if so how to correct it?

We took a position of confronting a team which threatened war over us moving a scout where they didn't want us to.

I don't care what happens or how successful you are, going to war too early when the sides are equal is suicide. Our current position is evidence that staying out of war is always preferable to duking it out unless you're sure you can win, win fast and hold onto what you win.

	08-09-2003 22:45									#23
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Au countraire, if anything we let CDG bully us around in the beginning precisely because we felt it best to avoid conflict in such an early stage. Some people even complained we were too complacent with CDG at first, not that we were confrontational.

	08-09-2003 22:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Au countraire, if anything we let CDG bully us around in the beginning precisely because we felt it best to avoid conflict in such an early stage. Some people even complained we were too complacent with CDG at first, not that we were confrontational.

No, we shifted our attitude to one of appeasement (which you're describing) after the initial confrontation with CDG occurred.

Given their position and our own at this moment in time, I think we made the correct choice.

	09-09-2003 00:15									#25
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We kissed CDG butt, true.

Now, we're becoming the dominant power on our continent, and CDG is dust.

Butt-kissing is unpleasant, but a means to much power (see the pun?).


Dominae

	09-09-2003 03:44									#26
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Wow, I agree with MZ and H_E on a thread about RP...

Seriously, I am of the opinion that the entire reason the PTWDG was held was to aid in learning things applicable to the ISDG. It may be unpleasant to have one's own actions disected in this manner, but it will happen with every team in the PTWDG and it's best that it does.

The valid problem that Togas points out is that because most people who post in threads like this were not ON the team being discussed and many were on teams opposed to them, the analysis will, of necessity, be biased due to the difference in perspective.

That happens to be the reason why I posted what I thought were our own actions and elements of diplomacy that lead to the current situation in the PTWDG. Much of it was not how cards were played (either by us or others), but by the cards that were dealt. Some other elements were decided by the decisions of others, decisions outside of our control. Some other elements were caused by OUR actions and decisions, some of them good ones, some of them bad ones.

Since it's my belief that those opposed to RP in the PTWDG have a natural inclination to believe that far more of what happened was due only to the last of those factors than the rest, I have attempted to lay out how I see the factors were involved. We are certainly not without blame for some of the things, as I've stated, but much of what has been attributed to RP diplomacy had absolutely nothing to do with it.

This, I believe, is the key lesson to be learned from RP. A whole friggin' lot is determined by the cards you are dealt. RP was dealt a really good hand with one very critical weakness: being approximate to the civs we were who had less fortunate hands, but great UUs. RP chose to play a high-stakes gamble with our hand, a high-stakes gamble that didn't pay off. It's entirely possible that it could have paid off if any number of things had gone differently (I think the most important was the death of Lux Invicta, but that may just be me). Some things we did improved our lot and some didn't.

As for the rest of what I think on this, just refer to my first post in the thread. I think I've said enough for now

	09-09-2003 04:37									#27
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You know I have reviewed this thread again and again I think that this discussion should be stopped. The way the thread was started it was almost asking for a Flame Fest.

The PWTDG was meant to learn about how to play this type of game. So to say that it will be our reputation because of one mistake from a learning experience is absolutely ridiculous.

Togas you have done an EXCELLENT job with our diplomacy. And we should all thank him for that. Togas I would also like to apologize for what I said earlier. This is what happens in a Flame Thread

	09-09-2003 05:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel The whole idea of the PTWDG was to practice against each other in preparation of the ISDG. To use what we learnt…what worked and what didn’t.

I take this point, but this thread has deviated considerably from that intent. We should not focus on PtWDG situations, but on potential or present ISDG situations. The PtWDG is too close to many of us to discuss emotionlessly just yet.

I hope to discuss this with the other Consuls and perhaps Ministers, but so far this thread has ended up rather like the latter posts of the "Spite and Malice" thread in the PtWDG forum. IF you can make some points valid to the ISDG without causing the problems that have always emerged, then continue. But be careful, as if I see this thread causing naught but trouble as it seems to be tending towards, I will have to push for a stop to it. I see my most important job as keeping the team happily working together, and a thread like this could endanger that. Please see MY point of view as I can see yours.

	09-09-2003 05:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Wow, I agree with MZ and H_E on a thread about RP...

Armaggedon cometh!

	09-09-2003 06:18									#30
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Adding a litte to what Arnelos was saying, in my experience with real life diplomacy and politics, it's all a gamble as he put it. It is unfair to say you failed since many times the failure is only evident in retrospective. I can't say this is RP's case as frankly there are things they did which I wouldn't have done but perhaps to them, they didn't feel that way. Diplomacy ultimately is not a science, it is an art, and art is subjective and prone to different interpretations which at the moment are conflicting, and only with the benefit of time do we know how well they worked out.

So, our job as FAM is simply to learn from mistakes and do our best, knowing that we tried to make the best decision with the information and world situation we had at hand at the moment. If we success, great, if not, we should try and separate the failure to that which could have been avoided, and that which only in retrospective could we have been sure of.

I'd like to give another example of this, not from RP's perspective but from GoW's: When we saw the GS cities on Bob, the first thing that came through my mind was "damn, we failed big time." More than that I took it as a personal mistake being in charge of GoW diplomacy at the time (well, still am just not too much diplomacy going on...)

However, looking at it retrospectively I realized two things which there was no way of knowing when we launched our assault.

1) We had no idea RP was going to collapse so quickly. Honestly I had shivers thinking of our stack getting blasted by bad RNG luck and tenatious catapult-pike-walled defenses. I was confident of an eventual victory but only after a long and bloody struggle which nevertheless might have ended in a stalemate (mostly because of GoW's production being nullified by the longest logistics train imaginable). That RP did the gifting thing so quick surprised us all since our F3 screen showed RP as average (with a few turns back being strong to us) and bigger than both us and ND in the powergraph.

2) We could have never offered more than RP could regarding land in Bob. Sure, we might have settled with 3-4 cities at the most, but given that RP had nothing to lose anymore, they were most likely to have offered a much more juicier deal.

Now, in retrospective, 2) was pretty darn obvious. Why did we miss it? Simply because there was no way we could have known 1). So, looking back we made a gamble on GS not entering the war, and we lost it simply because what we did, at the time, seemed the most reasonable and best choice, but in retrospect, it didn't. Would we have changed anything? Of course not because as long as we didn't know 1) the truly optimal decision was out of our knowledge.

So, there you have it. In a nutshell, diplomacy is not as easy as it sounds.