08-09-2003 21:42									#1
	General diplomacy and trading Doc flex Put an end to popups!

I have sent very general messages to bother the cyborgs and the university. Basically I said that I just wanted to touch base after my absence and that I hoped fro strong friendship and close relations.

The cycon has already responded indicating an interest in acquiring doc flex and also indicating they might still owe us ethical calc from the prior deal. Could whomever negotiated the prior deal with cycon confirm whether or not there are ANY outstanding obligations either way ??

THAT LEaves Doc flex. I was one of the loudest voices against trading it early but the cycon are now researching it and at least one AI have it . . . SO my view is that we trade it now and try to get something for it. If we trade it to the cycon and then PUT, it will still take them a little time to find the Hive and Drones-- it may be even possble for us to trade the tech to the Hive and drones.

MY view is this:

We make a deal with the cycon to trade them doc: flex a turn or two before they would otherwise discover it. Around the same time we trade it to the University. IF the Hive/drones don't have the tech, we trade it to them 6 or 8 turns later. My hope is to trade it FOUR times for benefit but try to time it so we keep everyone out of the water as long as we can. I would trade for tech or cash. Personally I would like to garner some cash and rush a bunch of infrastructure. Having a tech lead makes us a target while having a better empire hardly registers in the powergraphs.

	08-09-2003 22:31									#2
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As I remember it, the Cycon owe us 1 tech (not necessarily EthicalCalc, but I have nothing against that one) from our previous deal leading to IndAuto.

The Hive has been in contact with the Datajacks, who are the AI with Doc:Flex, which could therefore be traded to the Hive if they are having good relations. Given that the Hive and the Drones both have IndAuto and at least one of them lack at least one of the prerequisites, I would imainge that they are in contact with one another. The Cycon are also in contact with the Datajacks, a manouver which left a bad taste in our mouths for the Borg - and could also have led indirectly to the DJ's getting Doc:Flex. Miriam and Roze are pacted.

So everyone except the PUT seems to have a reasonable expectation of getting Doc:Flex without us which does indeed argue for trying to trade it before the DJ's do. The DJ's getting it was in fact the reason we recently broached the matter with the Borgs, to get them on record as negotiating for it with us so that they might feel uncomfortable going behind our backs to get it from the DJ's.

It would seem reasonable to assume that the Hive are somehow closer to the DJ's than are the Drones (and that one of them, presumably the Hive, has a ship (like a unity transport), which was used to make contact (I suppose a pod, or even a land connection could also be responsible for that). If the Hive are near the DJ's, we should be able to find them, as we are all over the DJ's boundaries with our ships, we just haven't checked out their neighbors' coastlines very closely. If they have anything we want to get, they have needs enough to be good customers of ours.

I agree with most of Cap'n Flubber's analysis, although I would be a little more coy about trading Doc:Flex to the PUT, at least until they seem likely to have a way of getting it themselves or offer something that we really want. Right now, it seems their best bet for getting it independently is that the Borg will come to them (since the Borg may be able to see, as we can, that someone has a base off their NE coast - I don't know what they see with their main view, but their view from DBTSVERSE PORTAL does not show it.

How fickle we are. It seems like it was only yesterday that I was being ragged for hoarding cash (to be able to rush facilities) instead of rushing units. Now, after spending most of our money on tech and units, the crowd is calling for money to rush facilities. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

I think it would be nice if we had Intel Integrity, so we could upgrade those scouts to cheap cops and between a cop and a RecComm, have enough drone control to get to get the bases populations beyond the Doctor-only specialist level once we start having a drones as our first citizens. I think that the first b-drone warning is coming up soon. It would also be nice to get NonLinear Math (without having to bother with Applied Physics first), but in any case, a weapons tech would be nice. I am assuming that we will try to get to Field Modulation before too long and use the Res3 Armor rather than bothering with Synthmetal, which is also, I suppose, better than nothing if we head in another direction.

	08-09-2003 23:42									#3
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Yes nothing to add. I was going to suggest asking for a non trade arrangement but with Roze and Miriam looking to trade all over the place that might not be achievable.

Cuspidore : Are you aware we have just met the Hive in the mid turn.

	09-09-2003 01:19									#4
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As (I think) you are by now aware, I was ignorant of your initial activities until recently, when you noticed that you had only cc'd Cap'n F.

We could still ask for a no trade clause, as there is some reason to believe that the Hive and Drones are in contact and if so, the Hive could trade the Doc:Flex to them before we or anyone else even gets into contact with them. The Hive may also be in a position to either trade Roze's commlinks to the Drones or to get Doc:Flex from her, but they may not know that Roze has Flex and trading the commlinks would not be in their best interests.

You will note if you see what we have that the Hive doesn't (offer all techs) that the DJ's commlinks are missing from that list which means that the Hive has them; however, there is no listing for the DJ's diplo status with the Hive in the DJ's profile - I don't know what that means as one would think that the Hive would use the commlinks if they had them and that would make it show up in the DJ's profile just like the CyCon does.

Roze has no ships to date and so is some time away from getting in touch with anyone else. Likewise the CyCon

	09-09-2003 04:38									#5
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That's funny I have checked twice and it seems I can offer the Hive, Datajacks Comms links (I am not going to but interesting discrepancy). Datajack won't accept my communication so perhaps she is in the midst of it.

The Hive don't have
Ind Base
Soc Psych
Doc: Mob
Doc: Flex
Progen Psych
Uni Comm
Believers Comm
Cycon Comm
Datajack Comm.

Anybody else get this outcome?

	09-09-2003 05:30									#6
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I got your list minus the DJ commlinks - I'm going to post a screenshot nex as a separate postt, but just so you know what it says if you can't download it.

It's also interesting that neither of us show the maps. If I list the techs for the Drones, I get the maps and all four commlinks (DataTechs are last) you'd expect (Confirming Hive contact with the Drones) plus Mobility, Flex and ProgenPsych for a total of 8, which is also the total I get for the Hive; perhaps there is a maximum (for me anyway). I'm using 1024x768, you too?

	09-09-2003 05:33									#7
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This is my poor quality image of the screen showing my view of what the Hive needs from us (Offer all tech).

	09-09-2003 06:56									#8
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Ah. Right. I went back to the mid turn 2134

With the Hive I went to the next screen after the above by pressing share tech. Here the techs and the four comm links are available. Interesting, and when I offered DJ it was accepted.

I never tried the Drones comm link for exploring their situation before so I got a similar report as you but going to the next screen, the Hive links became available for transaction.

So which is the more accurate?

	09-09-2003 15:06									#9
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Ah-So, the Share Techs screen, I didn't try that and I recall that it is a scrolling screen so it wouldn't have a funky limit like the all tech screen seems to have (although it might still be hard to transact more than 8 in one turn - unless some of them went through behind the scenes without the recipient's knowledge).

Getting back to the other screen, are you using the 800x600 resolution and getting more techs listed?

	09-09-2003 17:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller . How fickle we are. It seems like it was only yesterday that I was being ragged for hoarding cash (to be able to rush facilities) instead of rushing units. Now, after spending most of our money on tech and units, the crowd is calling for money to rush facilities. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

I was one of the people that spoke in favor of spending some money to get our boats out there. Now that this has been done, we have garnered a fair advantage from trade with a number of factions and have a very good sens of the lands around us. We are able to make much better decisions and have available tech.

Now our situation is changed . . . There is no huge need for any additional boats and its time to rush colonies and infrastructure.

Another possibility is to try to get a few rovers ready with the idea of rushing roze. The last I saw , Roze had a pretty small and pathetic military. cash available to upgrade basic rovers to best weapon or best armour would be helpful.

	09-09-2003 19:07									#11
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To confuse matters further the Hive seem to be able to trade the Drones comm links. hmmm.

	09-09-2003 19:09									#12
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Unless the Hive have just made contact with the Drones this turn as well. Hence the message about complicated turn requiring 48 hours.

Re screen I am on the standard 1024 X 768

Last edited by Hercules on 09-09-2003 at 19:20

	13-09-2003 23:10									#13
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Just though I would hit this thread as well

WE now have 3 human controlled factions willing to trade us stuff for doc flex-- I think we should consider this seriously as

1. Roze has it already
2. the cycon are researching it

So far the offers are

1. Hive -- 2 level 1 techs
2. UNiversity-ethical calc plus perhaps more-- they want cycon comm as well
3. Cycon-- a future tech perhaps-- I would tie them done on this before making any deals

I think our sea monopoly is almost over and I would rather we get some value NOW-- my big fear is that the council will get called if the EG is built and it will get traded around with no benefit to us
3. cycon

	14-09-2003 03:08									#14
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While I agree that it is about time to start trading it, hasn't Empath Guild been disabled? Just another incentive to keep at least one or two comm frequencies to ourselves until it suits us to have council called.

	14-09-2003 06:21									#15
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Ahhh

ig EG is disabled this means we have some more years to play with but the premise is the same since Roze has doc flex-- if we delay too long, we risk missing out entirely on getting any benefit of trading comms

	14-09-2003 07:34									#16
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I would like to tie the trading of Comm limks into support for Plan Gov, when we reach the candidate status.
Re PUT lets think.

We expect to get ethical Calc via the Cycon. So what else can the PUT offer.

	14-09-2003 08:59									#17
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Let's try and work out the ramifications of some of our possible actions.
First re Doc:Flex.

Have Doc: Flex

Roze
Miriam
Pirates

Next likely: Cycon. More or less agreed tech trade but we are trying to delay timing of trade. We get new tech in exchange (possibly Eth Calc- but note PUT message).

Roze might trade to others but we think she is only in contact with Cycon and Miriam.

PUT As they have mobility they could well be close to discovering Doc: Flex. On the otherhand they may well expect to trade with us for Ethic Calc plus

When we talk of trading Doc: Flex, it inevitably means other factions will meet with each other. So we have to judge when to sell our comm links

Comm Links

Hive: no known contact with any faction but Drones.
Drones: Only known contact is with Hive but suspected contact with PUT.

We the pirates hope to establish contact with the Drones in 2/3 turns. We will be the only faction with all Comm links.

As soon as we start trading the comm links, so we lose our priveleged trading position.. But it is going to happen in time of course.

When we trade Doc: Flex to the Cycon and to the PUT, they are going to meet within 5/6 years, estimate, maybe sooner. We need to trade to both simultaneously. We can seek trade restriction.

Trading Comm links poses problems for us. It is impossible for us to police once we release the comm links.

The chain.
Hive have contact with Drones.
Drones we suspect have contact with PUT(based on speed to Ind Auto)
Cycon have contact with us ( Pirates), Roze and Miriam
We have contact with Roze, Miriam, Cycon, Hive,and PUT.

If we pass Cycon contact to Hive or PUT at this moment it will transferred like hot cakes. In fact we could lose the initiative because the other comms could be traded and we would lose the middleman status. So obviously we are hesitant and rightly so. The Hive and the Cycon, quite far apart on the planet would have contact earlier than would have been the case.

However when we trade Doc:Flex to the Cycon and PUT, they will each meet each other quite quickly (5/6Years at earliest) and then with comm link trading every faction could quite quickly be in contact with everyone else.


Now that everyone knows that we have links to the Cycon and the Hive we are going to come under some pressure.

Some questions:
Do we try to tie in the Comm links to :

Tech trade restrictions
Votes?
PACT?

tech
tech and ecs
tech and votes
ecs
ecs and votes
tech ecs and votes
each and all

and when?

My preferred locked in transfer (of Doc: Flex) is when we discover Doc:Init in 2/3 years.

I would amenable to receiving Ethical Calc and vote commitment from PUT for Doc: Flex. The trade Doc: Flex to everyone we are in contact with ,with restrictions so that Drones don't get it except by research or from us.

Re Comm links I feel the more the Drones are isolated from the other factions the better, until such time as Plan Gov elections.

This is a bit jumbled but I am trying to work things through.

For instance: How will this impact upon our strategy of invading Rozeland when we have the weapons tech. Might other factions have similar ambitions, when they have Doc: Flex (I know we have the better maps).

Last edited by Hercules on 14-09-2003 at 09:08

	15-09-2003 06:20									#18
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First - Re the question of whether or not the EG is available - It HAS been Disabled - so noone will be getting it. There is still a possibility of getting an occasional commlink via a pod, but that seems to be rather rare, so not much worth worring about.

As for Cap'n Herc's analysis, it seems to cover the bases and to be pretty well thought out. I'm not so sure that the PUT and Borgs will meet as soon as Callico thinks, after getting Doc:Flex, as they do have to build the ship and sail it somewhere, but maybe in the ballpark of 10 years instead of 5 or 6.

Someone has the Unity Crash Site in their territory, which at least sometimes, and I assume all the time, gives them the locations of all the factions HQ's on their maps. That will help the bearer zero in on other factions once getting the wherewithall. Has anyone any notion of who might have it? Miriam had a chopper, so it could be her (a chopper often comes with it too).

As for getting elected to the Governorship, I think that highly unlikely, as I don't think that we have a good chance of getting on the ballot in the near term because of the AI's leads, and the other factions can all grow faster than us, making it harder in the long run. That said, we are keeping up with the other humans right now, so with a little luck, we might get the numbers up at the right time if at least one of the AI has been somehow weakened enough to get off the top 2. With our current vote total of 15, we are now in 4th place, 10 votes off the ballot - the others have - Hive: 16; PUT: 12; Miriam: 24; Cycon: 14; Drones: 11; Roze: 26 - on a positive note, only the Hive is ahead of us w/r human facitons and only by 1 vote. Nevertheless, if we were the only humans on the ballot, it would be easy for all or at least enough of the humans to vote for the AI candidate since they would not be particularly feared by the other human factions. We do have the advaantage (or will, once we contact the Drones) that we will be able to call the election when we want, so that if we find ourselves eligible for the ballot, we can call it right then.

I believce we still have some time to go with our sea monopoly, but I think we need to keep an eye on the Cycon, as they could theoretically get it independently from the AI - thus we should be reasonably accomodating to them when they start to get impatient or when they get close to finishing it themselves NLT 2143, but probably sooner. As to the others, I still think retrade stipulations are reasonable to impose on the recitients of Doc:Flex, so when the time comes, we should include that clause in most of the trades. Ditto for the ability to get the MMC, although I don't think we should pay too much for that excllusive, since other people probably don't want it so badly anyway. Remeember, once we get Doc:Init, all our warships get the Marine attribute, allowing us to capture some ships we defeat (to 50% or less), which might be daunting to would-be sea enemies - plus, as we all know, sea power is not so great compared to air power anyway.

Once again I would like to remind the Cap'ns that WE NEED TO BUILD DEFENSIVE PROBES SOMETIME, and preferably at Command Centers, so let's try to work that into the production 'schedule' .

Last edited by johndmuller on 15-09-2003 at 06:26