09-04-2000 22:06									#1
	Amaerica's Involvement in RedFront. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, now that we've all had some time to play through RedFront 1.4, let's start comparing some results...
Let us discuss here the role that the Americans played in our games...

I was quite surprised to find that the Americans played almost no part in my defeat of Germany. I saw a total of 3 GI units in Italy, they may have killed a Hummel...that's all. There was also 1 P-47 Thunderbolt that made the rounds around US Base, but it never hit any targets. There were 2 pop-ups regarding the US units (I think), the second proclaiming the arrival of a non-existant 3rd army under Patton.
So all in all, the Americans didn't do anything in the game. Perhaps some event didn't take place that should've triggered mass #'s of American units?
What was the extent of the Americans in your game?

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 09, 2000).]

	09-04-2000 22:08									#2
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Ok...no comments about the fact I mistyped "America" in the title!



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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	10-04-2000 01:55									#3
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you mistyped America? hehehe

The Americans didn't do much in my game either

	10-04-2000 02:28									#4
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In my game I didn't see the Americans

	10-04-2000 02:34									#5
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This shows the high quality of the American education system.

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	10-04-2000 04:29									#6
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well I'm sorry Mr. Add "eh" to every word

	10-04-2000 04:34									#7
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Very funny Leo

So I guess nobody had them capturing cities? I was hoping for a race, sort of the Democracy vs. Communism- Iron Curtain deal.

Perhaps this is another thing to add to 1.941? More event insertions of American tanks, planes and soldiers. Give 'em high ratings to stimulate the "race to influence" future governments.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	10-04-2000 08:23									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I just loaded my last .sav file from the summer of '45. Germany was down to 12 Objective points Incedentily, I ended up with a 100% rating. Quite good, and a rather nice, even number I must say.
Since I had the NKVD Agency Wonder, I checked with both the Germans and the Americans, neither of which said they were at war with the other!
I know I saw like three GI units take out a Hummel back in '44, so perhaps there is a problem when you use the bat to call up '45? We'll have to see if Nemo can help us out.
I'll go in and call up the cheat mode to see just what the Americans are up to. Perhaps I can save it, and make my own scenario as the Americans...give myself a whole bunch of units and race the Soviets for the last few turns for fun.
I'll see where the heck the Americans are, and what they are waiting for.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	10-04-2000 09:51									#9
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The same thing happened with me... I was really hoping for a race for Germany, but instead, I got easy victory! Damn!

So what's up with this, Nemo?

	11-04-2000 09:01									#10
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The Americans show up in Italy in 1944. Historically they progressed slowly "up the deadly boot".
By Spring of 1945 they cross the Rhine and should start multiplying at very high rates... If there are Germans fighting against them. If the Germans are already pulverized by early 1945 they won't kill any Americans, and the Americans will not multiply. I could move them up to 1944 but that would not be very historical, would it?
In my game I stopped the Red Army advance in the Fall of 1944 after taking Berlin and waited to see what the Americans would do on their own. They came up to Ravenna by the winter of 1944 capturing 3 Italian cities. They were pretty quiet during the winter of 1944-45. In April the Shermans and P-47Ds started appearing and by August they held 15 cities in Western Germany and had approx. 400 units.
If version 1.941 is tougher so Berlin can't be taken until early 1945 then the Americans may prove to be perfectly balanced.

	12-04-2000 04:06									#11
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Eh?

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	13-04-2000 09:37									#12
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Nemo, 400 American units!?! I don't think I saw many more than 4! I was giving the Germans a pretty hard time, but they still had plenty of Kingtigers to throw at the rubble units. The Germans had plenty of units to strike at the Americans, but never did. Could this possibly be due to the fact that neither of them were "at war" with each other when I checked with my foreign minister?

Molotov wouldn't lie, would he?

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	13-04-2000 09:26									#13
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I thought I had plenty of "Make aggression" commands in the rules. I my game there was no issue... One thing that is very strange though, I think FW executes a unitkilled command as many times as the unit is killed while MPGE seems to only consider the "top" unit in a stack. Some people have told me they couldn't win Stalingrad even when they killed "Paulus"... Why, because the German Feldmarshal unit is stacked with hedgehogs and 88s. If the same happens during the American invasion of 1944-45, it would put a serious dent in the US forces appearing as they usually stack up. If the Germans can wipe out a stack of 10-12 GIs and the US's only reward is one new GI + 1 Sherman tank then the attack will fizzle.
Can you check how many US units were on the casualty board? Do you get multiple messages when a stack of multiple units is killed. (Like settlers/refugees, do you get one partisan for each killed or just one partisan?)
Thanks for taking the time to check this for me.

	13-04-2000 15:44									#14
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Uh, Nemo, I was playing my last game in MPGE when I got too many units error.

So I somehow doubt the MPGE theory.

I could test it though later today using cheat mode. I'll post back here afterwards.

	14-04-2000 09:51									#15
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When I reloaded a saved file, the cheat mode was automatically on! Anybody experienced this?

	14-04-2000 09:58									#16
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I'm at my school's library now... I'll check that stuff when I get home. From memory, parisan units were given to me proportional to the # of setlers etc killed. I can see the stack of partisans in the Pryapts in my head.
I never have had a problem killing Paulus, and getting the "VICTORY AT STALINGRAD" message. If the stacking issue were apparent, I wouldn't have seen it. I AM playing with MPGE, as our discussions regarding Wonder texts have revealed. I'll reload my saved file and check with the casualty list. I'm going to guess that there may be 1-3 Gi's killed. That's all I saw. There were P-47's(2 or 3) trapped within the sea mines around US Base. I think those seamines are Soviet right?

Any thought as to why US/Germany weren't listed as "At War"? This could be the entire problem. If this is the case, probably an easy fix.

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions Nemo!

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

	14-04-2000 05:22									#17
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On my game, as of September 1945:

US BASE:

1 Costal Fortress
1 vet P-47 (1 in prod)
3 vet AA's
3 vet Sherman's
6 vet GI's
(all units happily fortified)

Casualties:
1 GI
1 Sherman

There were two GI units in the mountains of Italy. Also, when I took the P-47 out for a spin, it couldn't pass the allied sea mines. But if the unit insertions are by death event, neither US Bse production or sea mines are the issue. The miniscule ammount of casualties must be to blame, but then I wonder why the Germans wouldn't attack? As I said before, they had plenty of Kingtigers for the rubble!

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 13, 2000).]

	14-04-2000 08:31									#18
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Yes! I have gotten a free cheat menu before! It's strange isn't it?

	14-04-2000 09:06									#19
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I too have noticed that strange cheat mode thing happening. It does not always occur, but for some reason, it has happened on and off since I downloaded Red Front 1.3.

I do not know what caused it. Perhaps some of the files were damaged during download.

	14-04-2000 17:47									#20
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Did any of the playtesters for v1.4 notice no Americans were appearing? If so how come nothing was changed?

	15-04-2000 04:06									#21
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There were only 2 testplayers for version 1.4 and we both had Americans appearing, but since we both were very good at playing the game (due to many prior games) we reached Western Germany before the Americans really started showing up in big numbers. I have not seen what is described here with only a few American units... In my games they have at least taken all of Italy.
The US base is not supposed to contribute much to the war effort. I could however put a couple of US floating mines among the Soviet ones so the US AI can find his way out. I made the US base a non coastal city so the Americans won't have a Navy until they capture port-cities in Italy.