10-09-2003 13:44									#1
	About beelining to Industrial Automation... Got spare money?

I get Industrial Base, Industrial Economics, Planetary Networks, Information Networks, all the pre reqs but usually it doesn't let me research Industrial Automation until I research 1-2 more, seemingly random techs.

I get all the pre reqs, but I still can't always research it.

Why not?

	10-09-2003 20:38									#2
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As you will note, you do not get the option of all available techs, each turn. In fact, I have seen situations where I was only given the choice of 1 tech, even though I was only in the middle of the tech tree.

I have never quite understood all the mechanics of it and instead just threw centauri ecology in as one of my first techs and then found ind auto appeared.

I have seen theories on how techs are presented . For example one person claimed that one of the tech selections is a " joker" selection and will ALWAYS appear until you acquire it while the others will appear or not.

Sorry-- this was a long-winded way of saying I don't know

	10-09-2003 20:58									#3
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The number that appear also have something to do with which difficulty level your on. (The higher your difficulty level, the fewer the options)

	10-09-2003 21:02									#4
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It is kind of weird. I just started to play with directed tech, and noticed how quickly it throws up some pretty serious mid-game techs, but it takes a while to get the prereqs for Env. Economics, which is my personal "holy grail"

	10-09-2003 22:16									#5
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Its a real killer when you beeline for something and it doesnt appear, and your tech rate starts to slow down dragging out the time it takes to get it even more.

	10-09-2003 22:34									#6
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At least with the university, if you research centauri ecology first, you can then go straight to industrial automation without pausing. I'm not sure if this is the same for other factions or not.

	10-09-2003 23:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Fazdaar At least with the university, if you research centauri ecology first, you can then go straight to industrial automation without pausing. I'm not sure if this is the same for other factions or not.

I have found the same with the morganites-- having experienced this, I go centauri ecology first

	10-09-2003 23:18									#8
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I should have mentioned, I always get Centauri Ecology before I start beelining.

But this has still happened with the Cyborgs and the Hive on Transcend.

Mainly I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong. If thats just how the game works it's fine.

Thanks

	10-09-2003 23:22									#9
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What's this I've heard about the turn-order affecting the given choices? That is, if your faction is in the #1 slot you always get the same choices, but if it's in another slot the choices might be different. Any confirmation for this?

	10-09-2003 23:39									#10
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AFAIK, the way the tech choices work is as follows;

A given tech has an associated number, t, which refers to it's position in the list of techs in Alphax.txt. These go from 0-73 (or whatever the number of techs is.)

If n is the number of techs the player has acquired, then a tech can be researched providing :-

(n + t) mod 3 !=0

or, if it's explore, build, discover and conquer values, added together, are the lowest of any available choice. (The Joker Tech)

This is largely the same as in CivII.

I can't remember if starting techs count towards n.

Oh, and on the first try you can research any available tech, unless it's a scenario start.

The result is that you can follow any beeline you want, providing you can use strategic trading of techs. At least, if you can be bothered... It's annoying to work it all out.

Last edited by Curiosity on 11-09-2003 at 01:02

	11-09-2003 01:28									#11
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A simple rule that I heard, not sure if it is true, is that sometimes the game would not allow you to research two techs in same color consecutively.

	11-09-2003 05:10									#12
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My Morgan tech progression is typically thus:
Biogenics (So I can put my 100 EC's seed money to work right away).
Centauri Ecology (Formers, duhy).
Industry Economics (For switch to FM)
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Automation

So clearly, the 'no 2 same-color techs' theory is invalid, as you can see, I've got 2 discover techs in a row in this beeline, and I never fail to get these choices, provided I don't have any other techs from other sources (pods, trade, etc). For this reason, I typically avoid contact with other factions, and turn down trades, until I can get IA under my belt. From that point forward, things get a bit more loose, but the following beeline is pretty common for me:

Social Psych (Rec. Commons and access to...)
Secrets of the Human Brain (This almost never yields the free tech, but if you're running FM, trance is your FRIEND).
Ethical Calculus (Creches and access to...)
Gene Splicing (Raises Nut restrictions)
Ecological Engineering (Raises Mineral Restrictions)
Environmental Economics (Tree Farms, Raises Energy Restrictions)

In most games, you'll be unable to grab all of these in a row, which is why I have a list of 'branch techs' that I know I'll want soon after Tree Farms. Some good branch techs are:

Neural Grafting (Great tech for Free Marketeers, since it gives The Neural Amplifier, and access to...)
Bio-Engineering (Clean Reactors. Need I say more?)

If you find yourself in a military pinch, and in need of superior firpower, these are the branch techs you'll also want to develop:

Applied Physics (Lasers, and leads to...)
High Energy Chemistry (Plasma Steel and introducing...)
Synthetic Fossil Feuls (Missiles, and Air Power on the way)

Finally, if you're on a peaceful bent, and don't feel threatened by your neighbors, consider the following additions to your tech beeline:

Progenitor Psych (Uninspiring by itself, but with the addition of...)
Adaptive Economics (Gives you the Planetary Energy Grid, every Free Marketeer's wet-dream project.)

As you can see, Environmental Economics is only 13 techs deep on the tech tree, 12 if you start with one of the pre-requisite techs at the beginning of the game. Not really too far to go, if you keep your priorities in mind. If you're planning a builder strategy, you should ALWAYS keep these critical techs in mind when you advance.

	11-09-2003 14:04									#13
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Thanks,

Your information is most helpful.

When numbered 1 to 74(not sure of end number), and counting the starting tech the formula works.

	11-09-2003 23:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity AFAIK, the way the tech choices work is as follows: A given tech has an associated number, t, which refers to it's position in the list of techs in Alphax.txt ...; n is the number of techs the player has acquired, then a tech can be researched providing :- (n + t) mod 3 !=0 or, if it's explore, build, discover and conquer values, added together, are the lowest of any available choice. (The Joker Tech) ...

Very Nice post Curiosity

Your presentation seems to be consistent with (not to mention simpler and more direct than) some of the old CIV II posts I've read on this, although this is the first time I can recall seeing an exact formulation of the determination of the Joker/Wildcard tech. Thank you.

Do you know how it handles ties in the category totals?

I wonder if it explains the reported differences in bee-lines between factions (and perhaps less credibly between turn order slots) - it might, due to differences in starting techs, or there might be an additional factor, such as the factions' own power/tech/wealth/growth entries in the faction files. Have you checked that out?

	12-09-2003 16:20									#15
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Start a game. Save it as scenario. Start the Scenario. You will always be able to choose from all techs in the scenario. (I don't like this)

	12-09-2003 19:26									#16
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Thank you for the information Curiosity, I'm trying to test it out.

Observations: I'm not sure if the joker tech part is correct. Consider the following scenario: I'm playing the Gaians on transcend difficulty, 1st slot. The techs I've researched so far are

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych.

According to your formula, the following techs should be available:

Field Modulation
Polymorphic Software
Social Psych.

However, Doctrine: Flexibility is also available, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 7 and the equivalent number for both Social Psych and Polymorphic Software is 6.

Another example a bit later from the same game:

Researched Technologies:

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych
Doctrine: Flexibility
Social Psych

Choices:

Applied Physics
Biogenetics
Ethical Calculus
Industrial Economics

Polymorphic Software doesn't appear now, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 6, which is the minimum of all techs available.

	12-09-2003 20:36									#17
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@curiosity:

the good thing with the modulo is, they can be added. This means, you have nothing more to do then dividing the techs into 3 large groups. The modulo 1 group techs can't be researched if you already have k*3+2 techs.

I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).

then you start to work out your research plan. The first tech gets number 1 you continue with 2,3, then start again with 1. Whenever a tech gets the number noted in the big plan it is not available at this time.

So it is not difficult to work out the plan. However, it might be difficult to understand my explanation. Maybe someone who is able to figure out what I mean can explain it better

	12-09-2003 21:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by HeymlicH I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).

You mean the technology tree? Yes, I suppose that could work. What I personally did was to create an excel worksheet that shows the choices you have depending on the techs you have researched. Unfortunately, I've got trouble with the joker techs as mentioned in my previous post.

	13-09-2003 00:28									#19
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John,

I only did this research because my tech path was screwing up in a multi-faction game, so I stopped when I knew enough to trade techs around without screwing everything up. So, my knowledge of this has some gaps in it.

I will check out how the factions differ - I hadn't given this much credibility myself, but from a game the other night I suspect it may well be the faction's slot which makes a difference, since I wasn't able to go straight to IA with the UoP - something which never happened to me before. I'd guess at a formula of
(slotID + n + t) mod 3 != 0,
if this is the case.

I think ties are broken by order in the tech tree (resulting in always being able to research T. thought, which is handy.) I'll have to modify alphax.txt to check it out.

	13-09-2003 02:43									#20
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I think I've got the basic formula figured out now. This is what seems to work for me:

t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction

The condition is

(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0

Worth noting here is "b", which for normal factions (Gaians) is 1, for some others (University, Pirates) 2 and for the Progenitors 5.

In addition to this come the joker techs, the formula to which I haven't been able to figure out yet. I'm afraid Curiosity's suggestion doesn't work for me.

	13-09-2003 04:16									#21
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I've noticed that it usually likes green techs. In fact a few months ago I was trying to figure out the way it caculated available techs and I noticed it always showed a green tech, except when there were no green techs available.

Another interesting point to make the Joker tech seems to always be the first in the listing of techs.

Edit:
From what I can see the joker tech is the first green tech available in the alphax.txt list.

Last edited by Kody on 13-09-2003 at 05:33

	13-09-2003 04:19									#22
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You had to join the University Minute Mirage. *sniffs sadly* So many missed strategy discussions.

	13-09-2003 05:32									#23
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The joker tech seems to be the first green tech in the alphax.txt you have the pre-reqs for.

If you research all the green techs I think there is no joker tech.

I haven't figured out what happens if all the green techs are gone, but I think there's no joker tech. The problem I'm having is SMAX crashes when I try to change the pre-reqs of certain techs.

Edit:

Been thinking about it, and I'm guessing the joker tech is the first that would appear in the available tech to research list. The listing of techs appear to work in the order of Green, White, Yellow and Red.

So it first finds out all the green techs and lists them in the order it appears in the alphax.txt and then finds all the white techs, and so on. To prevent the case of being unable to choose a tech, the game always enables the first tech it can list that you have preqs for.

I have yet to test this by disabling all the green techs. However, this kind of setup would make sense.

Last edited by Kody on 13-09-2003 at 07:32

	13-09-2003 13:13									#24
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Kody's correct; my explaination for the Joker tech was biased by the fact that Mobility, Flexibility and Initiative all have low combined values, and they're normally the Jokers. A less perverse mind than mine would have realized that they're all Explore techs first.

I've tested Kody's explaination through the Explore, Discover and Build techs, so it's pretty solid.


MM,

Though my testing of this was limited, I'd say you have it there.

	13-09-2003 14:35									#25
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I've never really tried to nail down the determination of the joker tech, but I have collected data for a while in my PBEMS as to what was offered, mostly with an eye to confirming the rotation of the withheld techs - the mod 3 thing in this threads language. Unfortunately, trading, stealing, popping or whatever other ways there are to get techs besides researching them tend to cloud the issue, making it hard enough to monitor the 1 in 3 thing, let alone the joker, which you have to studiously avoid getting it for some time if you are going to establish that it really is appearing in all 3 groups; like if you make one trade, then you have to get 2 more techs to get back on that group again.

Anyway, I do have a collection of data, limited to some extent by the effect of trades, etc, and sometimes by forgetting to record the choices in the excitement of finally getting a long awaited tech; at some point I will try to analyze it in the context here and see if anything pops up.

I'm pretty sure I've seen ProgenPsych as a wild card, but I think I've also seen it skipped under similar, but not I imagine quite identical circumstances, where I think that EthicalCalc was the wild card instead. The same with Centauri Ecology; I know I have seen that skipped and it is a really bad way to start the game. I don't have any recollections regarding Doc:Mobility, but wouldn't one of them be a candidate for the el primo joker according to the earliest green theory?

My notion is that with the possible exception of some sort of factional adjustment, the whole tech offering thing is controlled by the Tech Tree section of the Alpha(x).txt file(s), without the need for the program to go hunting through very much other stuff. According to that theory, the Tech Tree (in conjunction with the techs you already have, to determine what you are eliible for) would have some rule applied to it, like first available green tech (an entry whose ai-colonize value was higher than the other categories) - that particular rule would make Doc:Mobility the ultimate wild card, then Centauri Ecology. Highest green value available tech would give the nod to ProgenPsych.

The particular column it looked at might depend on the faction's (factionname).txt file; such a variation would make Morgan look for a build tech, as that is the only category he cares about. The Spartans would go for Conquer or Discover I suppose. I don't really know how it would hanclle ties in the faction file, but if green is an observed priority, then perhaps it is just the reverse order of categories, i.e. Explore, Build, Discover, Conquer.

BTW, there are a couple of strange looking factions in there - ever heard of the Outlaws? (They can't use 'Controlled Protocols')

	13-09-2003 16:23									#26
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Well, I think we've got pretty much everything figured out now. The joker tech seems to be determined by the method Kody described: If there are any Explore techs with both the prerequisites researched, it's the Explore tech that is the highest in alphax.txt. If there are no Explore techs, it's a Discover tech. If there are no Explore or Discover techs, it's a Build tech. If there are no other techs, it's a Conquer tech.

While there's no specific column in alphax.txt that specifies the category a given tech belongs to, the category can be determined from the maximum value of the ai-mil, ai-tech, ai-infra and ai-colonize values of the tech, just like johndmuller said. That is, if a tech has the following values: 2, 3, 2, 0, its maximum value is 3, which is on the ai-tech column. Thus, it is an explore tech. If I'm not mistaken, the only technology that has its maximum value in two columns instead of one is Ethical Calculus. Otherwise its very easy to determine the category of a technology just by these four values.

What I did was to copy alphax.txt into Excel, after which the technologies available to research can be determined as long as the following information is known: technologies researched, # of starting techs and the slot number of the faction.

	13-09-2003 22:41									#27
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Good work guys! Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

	14-09-2003 01:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

I suppose I can do it, once I've finished it. I'm still making some cosmetic enhancements and adding macros to make adding new technologies to the list of researched technologies easier.

	14-09-2003 10:11									#29
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MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are :
ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts
ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge
ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth
ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth

I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

	14-09-2003 14:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by johndmuller MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

That's true, I meant Discover but typed Explore instead.

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are : ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth

I agree.

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

I can do some more testing with the different factions. It's not that tedious when you activate the scenario editor and obtain a new tech by pressing SHIFT+F2.