10-09-2003 20:38									#1
	Proposed City Placements Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Finally figured out how to get an image to work here...

Red circle is the proposed new capital. Yellow circles are sites for temporary camps. Purple circles are proposed permanent cities. Plan may change if no-one likes it, or due to new revelations as terrain is uncovered.

The cities are arranged in rings of equal distance to take advantage of the corruption formula, to reduce our corruption in those cities.

It looks like the sea to the east is some kind of gulf (there are indications of coastal water on the edge of the FoW). Sunshine appear to live somewhere around there. Big jungles to the north and mountains to the south are low priorities for expansion right now. We'll probably find another civ to the west of the lake, at about our latitude, at a guess.

In my opinion the early priorities are blocking the land from the lake (not fresh water by the look of it) to the east coast, which can be done with 2 or 3 cities - enough to give SS the idea that this is our territory. After that, getting cities in the plains and around the lake with plenty of irrigation is necessary to give us some productive cities. I think we're going to need quite a lot of workers, especially being non-industrious

EDIT: Added new ring of blue cities in visible territory - dark blue for permanent, light blue for camps. The full ring (ignoring sea) would have 12 permanent cities and 8 temporary camps. With our current info about the ocean, it looks like 2-3 of these would be missing.

Last edited by vulture on 11-09-2003 at 19:04

	11-09-2003 03:38									#2
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My plan called for the first city/camp to be placed SOUTH of us on the coastline, but your plan seems workable.

My thinking was that our first city would be used to pump Jaguar Warriors so I wanted the production from that forest tile to the south (along with easy access to the already in-place road network to the hill south of our capital).

If our first city is going to be north of us, we should have our worker start building road/improvements in that direction.

Also, if we're NOT going to Jaguar rush, we may not need that forest tile as badly...

I agree that what we're going to need is a LOT of workers because we're non-industrious and have a lot of land to improve... so taking advantage of the flood plain is a top priority.

That said, having the production to build enough defense units and to pump out settlers and workers fast enough is also important.

	11-09-2003 03:40									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Oh, also... the land to the south of us is a lot more attractive than the land to the noth of us (even with all of the food in the flood plain). That's why I was thinking we should build cities toward the south rather than northwest....

Now I'm thinking that perhaps we might eventually move our capital to where you suggest AFTER first building our FP to the south.

Thoughts?

	11-09-2003 12:35									#4
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We haven't found anyone to jag-rush yet have we?

How are things between us and sunshine? Still friendly? Any new agreements?

Why are we going to move our capitol? For optimal ring-city-placement?

Our land are locked in on four sides with jungles to the north, lake to the west(and hippies?) sea to the east and mountains to the south...The southern terrain looks better but we may want to claim some of the land around us. Our proposed new capitol site seems like and obvious first choice to me, and then the pink dot south of the lake(future border against the hippies), then we go south.

	11-09-2003 13:50									#5
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The placement I came up with was designed to minimise corruption and have long term potential, rather than find the best sites immediately. There would have to be another ring (or ring segments) about 9 tiles from the capital, one of which would be on the forests south of us. There isn't any particular order we have to found cities in.

But I figured we'd have plenty of time to settle the south, but might be facing encroachment from Sunshine cities in the north rather soon. Okay, the jungle isn't going to be settled in a hurry, but that has great long term potential - if we last long enough to start doing some serious jungle clearing.

My personal priorities for city building would be to get a northern border established, and then set to work on cities in the plains, and irrigating every tile we can reach around there.

I think we ought to be looking to mine the deserts though. A floodplain and mined desert gives the same food/shields (4/2) as two mined grasslands or two irrigated plains (once we're out of despotism). We have roughly equal numbers of desert and flood plains tiles, so I think we can do without irrigating deserts unless we are in a hurry to have big cities.

Bongo: yes, the idea of moving the capital is to have it more or less at the center of the empire, for reduced corruption. You can design rings around the current capital, but due to the lake and the sea you get fewer cities in each ring, and therefore higher corruption overall.

It remains to be seen how good the south really is. There's a mix of grassland and hills. We'd need to irrigate much of the grassland to enable us to make us of the hills there, and there's not that much flat terrain before we hit tundra. Seeing what is in the SE would be useful - whether it is a small pensinula, or something larger.

The large plains to the west could be a good direction for expansion though. Irrigation is cheap to do, and every tile producing 2/1 can be quite powerful (plus occasional bonus squares).

All plans might well change when we finally discover a source ofl luxuries though.

	11-09-2003 13:52									#6
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Arnelos: We could either move the capital there and use the FP in the south with a second set of rings (or elsewhere, depending on what our scouts uncover), or build the FP close to home in the 'new capital' site (which takes less time) and then move the palace to the second set of rings (south or elsewhere). It's generally easier to do it that way around, unless we have a leader to rush the FP somewhere where corruption is high.

	11-09-2003 16:21									#7
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Good stuff Vulture, interesting analysis

Level 5 RCP rocks.

I think we should consider build a FP in one of the level 5 cities then building another half ring around that.

I'm not too keen on the temporary camps, (what do you think arny?), it will give us extra shield in the short term but I think the pop/sheild cost would be too much. I typically use 5/6 level rcp on standard maps and find camps to be a bit of a waste unless I'm in immediate danger or have good bonus resources for them to use.

The one 2 north may be worth it though, it has the potential for 5 excess food although will lack the sheids.

Like you guys have been discussing we need to know more about the map, the jungle looks mean and those hills are annoyingly positioned. Overall I think this is probably the best area for the core. We can look more at the specifics, it could be a good idea to move the city matrix 1 tile south, to move further from the jungle? It'd mean the city to the north would get the wheat,grassland straight away and the city directly NW could be moved s,se. Although we'd loose fresh water for 2 cities.

	11-09-2003 16:26									#8
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Good thinking about blocking SS we don't know how cramped they are. They may be a decent land link to their lands south of the jungle that they may want to sprall along so blocking that will be important.

Unless there is another nation close to the west we should have no problems securing this land

	11-09-2003 16:36									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think in theory we could get a 5 turn stlr pump in our current capital, with granary, size 6/7 pop and 5 more developed tiles.

Although whether it's worth it for a city likely to be abandoned is questionable...

	11-09-2003 17:30									#10
	Got spare money?

The pop cost of camps can be offset by turning all their pop into workers when it is time to disband them - this can be done pretty quickly. The shield cost is a short term loss that is offset by the shield production while the camps exist.

Camps are a relatively low build priority though. This stage of the game is about grabbing as much land as possible, which is done by controlling choke points (to secure territory behind them, although we are lacking choke points) and building cities with wide spacing to claim ground as quickly as possible. Camps only really come into it if there is good terrain to be used (as OPD says), or once you've expanded as far as possible and want to start getting some use out of those tiles that you've claimed but won't otherwise be working until post-hospitals. You don't want camps to distract from the REX.

Ideally, the current capital should be a temporary city, so that it can be disbanded to do the palace jump to a better location, but I couldn't see any
good scheme for placing cities in that area that had the capital as a temporary city. I don't think it is too much of a problem though, as long as we don't use too many shields from the capital on improvements. A granary might be worth it for a settler pump (but no barracks). When it comes to time to move capitals, the old one can be converted into workers / settlers, abandoned with a settler, and then rebuilt back up to a high population in one turn. All we'd lose is one granary, and one population.

Given the ability on all the teams around here, I think we need to squeeze every last bit of benefit out of our empire, since we don't exactly have a good start position. I think camps will help will that, but I'll have to go and play with the corruption formula to see under what conditions they boost our effectiveness.

	11-09-2003 19:12									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The image has been edited to show a possible next ring, 9 tiles from the capital, or as much of it shows on the discovered territory so far. The permanent cities will get to size 14-16 in principle, although given the mountains and hills, that is a bit optimistic for the SW towns.

The camps boost the overall production of the empire as long as the no. of tiles worked by cities beyond the camps / no. of tiles worked by the camps is greater than R, where R=5.9 for despotism, 6.2 for monarchy and 6.8 for republic. Oddly enough, if all the outer cities have courthouses, the values of R become 7.4, 7.8 and 8.4 for despotism, monarchy and republic respectively - courthouses reduce the benefits of disbanding the camps.

This is a pretty easy test to make during the course of the game, so it should be easy to find the ideal time to get rid of camps (or judge that we are too close to that time when we finish REXxing to bother building them in the first place).

	13-09-2003 16:25									#12
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Cool I have to agree with you now on the camps strat

Is the R formula something you came up with or is it someone else's?

There is still alot here that needs to be worked out although for now we really need more info. As we have plenty of time to look at things.

	15-09-2003 13:56									#13
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It's something I worked out myself using alexman's corruption formula. Although, I have to say, I was going from memory on the value of OCN and the map size, and I think I guessed a bit wrong on both. I put the map size as 80x80, but it's a standard 100x100 map isn't it? And we're playnig on Regent difficulty? I'll work out the new numbers, but they won't be much different.

We definitely have plenty of time before we need to commit to a plan though, and more scouting along the east coast (both directions) and west of the lake.

BTW why is our SW jag wandering through mountains? Isn't that a waste of the 2 movement? We'd get more exploration done if we stuck to the flats, and came back to the mountains later.

	15-09-2003 16:40									#14
	Put an end to popups!

True, send him where his 2-movement is most useful. We can return to the mountains later.

	30-10-2003 17:06									#15
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Since this thread has been topped, it might be a good time to re-examine our city placement plans in the light of what we now know about the terrain and the placement of other civs. Can someone post a screenshot of the currently-known world (preferably the ctrl-shift-M one to remove all the FoW, but with the cultural borders still on the map so we can tell where cities are (you can set that up in the preferences menu I think - I know it's how mine is set up but I can't remember exactly how I did it).

	30-10-2003 22:33									#16
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The area to the west of the sealake is barren Sunshine lands.

	30-10-2003 22:40									#17
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In term of current cities the capital is 1 NE of the hill tile just east of the wheat on plains in the east of the image.

The second city is 7888 of this at 5.5 distance.

The next city is planned to be built next turn at 77777 from the capital at 5 distance.

The main advantages being the floodplains and the fact that it opens up the floodplains for the 2nd city. Also as the big lake is actually a sea it's better to have the city on the coast.

What I'd like to see happen with this city is for it to grow to size 3 then use 2 floodplains and one plain tile to build a worker every 5 turns.

	10-11-2003 11:55									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sorry I haven't been around lately.

I'm very much in favor of building camps for the purpose of pumping out workers, something which we are uniquely qualified to do with our sweet flood plain starting position.

	10-11-2003 15:33									#19
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We have already settled on one of the camp sites, I propose we build at P4 first, and C3 next.

	05-01-2004 05:29									#20
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I've made a proposed plan for city building as the old one is redundant....

It relies on a FP in the current most southern city and a palace jump to the 2nd city. Using RCP at distance 4 for 10 cities (with 1 city at distance 3). The current capital would have to be abandoned as would the city currently called Nowhere. Being replaced by a city 1 south.

The red cities are palace cities and the dark blue ones are primary core cities and the light blue are secondary cities.

	05-01-2004 05:31									#21
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Actually the city S,S,SE of the capital should actually be S,S of the capital to be on the river.

And the city NE,NE,NE of the capital would probably be better NE,NE

	09-01-2004 18:57									#22
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Looking good. Where is the recently discovered iron? I can't see it on that map - is it close to one of our proposed cities? It might be worth contemplating whacking another city down on the coast just south of Perla, if that doesn't mess things up too much. Give us more of a staging / recovery area in the event of a war in that direction (red is Tabemono, isn't it? Or is it LL?)

Should we switch the name of Al Aqsua to Temple Mount, and alternate it every turn between the two?

	09-01-2004 19:06									#23
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Do you see that jag that sticks his head out just left to the minimap? That's where the iron is. A good 12-14 tiles away from our proposed FP.

Our naming policy haven't changed much since your last visit. He who plays, get to name stuff

	09-01-2004 19:50									#24
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The problem with the Iron is that it is very far away through difficult terrain to road especially being non-industrious and so we'd more likely be needing saltpeter more by then with the speed that tech is moving.

Settler on a galley then buiding a harbour would be the best way to get to it. Although I don't know how immediately important it would be to get.

	09-01-2004 20:03									#25
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It would make more sense to send a settler on foot just to claim the iron, then connect it later by settling new cities south/southeast of our FP-city. Or send the settler on foot and connect it with a harbor.