10-09-2003 21:50									#1
	Delivery Bonus Anomaly? Tired of ads?

Here's the SAV:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Elephant/ma_a80.sav

There are two caravans next to LittleBighorn, a Dye and a Hides. LB demands Dye/Salt/Hides. Delivering either one of them pays around 204-208 gold and changes the demand to Silk/Salt/Gold. Delivering the second one immediately also pays 204-208 gold, even though it is not demanded anymore. Dye and Hides are both x2 for demand.

Why is the payout the same, even after the demand changes?

	10-09-2003 22:50									#2
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Did you look in the city between deliveries.

This may be similar when you're moving a carvan and it says it's demanded when you move the caravan through but then you look in the city and it's not. (since it has suposedly updated)

	10-09-2003 23:27									#3
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Just before first delivery: Dye/Salt/Hides
Between first and second: Silk/Salt/Gold

Doesnt matter which you deliver first, either...

(BTW: Lafayette, Smash and Old n Slow: this is from CFC's GOTM32, so consider it a "Spoiler"...)

	10-09-2003 23:43									#4
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were both carvans from the same city? Could a road bonus on one but not the other have come into play.

	11-09-2003 00:09									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Knowing Elephant, I'd say that they are from the same city -- he's a fan of OCC.

	11-09-2003 00:16									#6
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Maybe the payoutwas only 1x -- but then of course the question is still -- why is the payout the same?

	11-09-2003 03:12									#7
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Load it up for yourself and see; I've tried it on two machines, same result. Yes, both from same city, but not OCC; trying an EL start on lousy terrain. Berlin has no TRs yet, arrows around 30. LitBig is on different continent. Either caravan delivered first should get the x2 payout, but second should not.

	11-09-2003 03:59									#8
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Let me guess, your science cost is 306! Am I right? A delivery never pays more than 2/3 of the science cost. Those caravans would be worth a lot more if you had a higher science cost. A good idea could be to trade a few techs with the AI.

	11-09-2003 04:09									#9
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I made some calculations after looking at your save. Those caravans are worth somewhere between 400 and 500 gold (assuming Little Bighorn has a base trade of 10). I attached an excelfile I made that calculates trade payoffs.

Attachment: tradepayoffcalculator.txt
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).

	11-09-2003 17:19									#10
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That would make sense.

	12-09-2003 00:41									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Ah - the 2/3 science limit! I had not hit that so "early" before - forgotten it was there! These were the first two trades, but the destination was further than I usually go for the first ones. Thanks for reminding me, I thought I had screwed up my settings by creating some scenarios...

I hate trading for unnecessary techs, so I dont think I'm going to swap for WarCode or Horse just to get a bit more gold. I need to hold off gifting the KeyCiv when a trade is near, or at least move that down my ToDo list (I have Diplomacy at the beginning of the Move Stage, before movement and deliveries).

	12-09-2003 13:52									#12
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yeah you're right don't swap for HBR and WC those are completly worthless techs and should be skipped if possible for the whole game. But what I ment was that you should trade for anything that you'll need anyway.

The start in this months game was a terrible one I must say. I did some wandering with the first settler and found a nice SSC site (two whales and one gem I think). I decided to get of the starting island as soon as possible since the terrain was really bad. I also gave up the idea to trade with the AI after exchanging maps with them. Too far away. We'll see if I manage to finish the game this month, usually I don't have the time we'll see, we'll see.

Good luck with your game.

	12-09-2003 17:09									#13
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Horseback riding is a useless tech that should be avoided.

	12-09-2003 18:18									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

yes HBR is worthless. I don't find any good use for horsemen unless it's a NONE one. If I can get chivalry and polytheism from an AI player I won't bother about getting HBR. Unfortunatly most of the time you have no choice but to take it sooner or later (when conquering the AI civs).

Same thing with warrior code. If I can get feudalism and iron working from the AI, I'll skip it.

But as I said I usually end up having both of them anyway,

	12-09-2003 20:14									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

HR can be useful, especially in MP, as the compulsory "not on the path to monarchy"-tech. Gives the second row for rushbuying and allows you to build a two-move exploring unit.

I completely agree on warrior code...

Carolus

	12-09-2003 20:16									#16
	Put an end to popups!

In games against the AI, I prefer BW (also gives a second row and is on the way to trade) or, sometimes, map making.

Carolus

	12-09-2003 20:56									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, either BW or HBR for that second rack and for barb protection.
You guys play way too much SP. In MP you can't trade rape the other players. You need real opponents.

	13-09-2003 00:07									#18
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I am curious about the 2/3 of science limit. Does that mean 2/3 of the total cost of current research or 2/3 of remaining cost?

	13-09-2003 00:36									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Elephant (BTW: Lafayette, Smash and Old n Slow: this is from CFC's GOTM32, so consider it a "Spoiler"...)

Not a spoiler for me , since I chose conquest (managed around 1000AD ).

	13-09-2003 02:52									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Wharf Rat I am curious about the 2/3 of science limit. Does that mean 2/3 of the total cost of current research or 2/3 of remaining cost?

2/3 of total cost of current research

	13-09-2003 08:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by rah 2/3 of total cost of current research

Otherwise you could deliver an infinite # of caravans and never fill the box

	15-09-2003 17:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Otherwise you could deliver an infinite # of caravans and never fill the box

Yeah, that would take the fun out of it.

	19-09-2003 12:37									#23
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Rah,

HR is not completely useless. However, I strongly agree with Chofritz that you should try to avoid acquiring it early in the game. In the early and mid game, all it does is add to ongoing research costs. Every unneccessary tech that you acquire adds, in every turn, to the cost of researching the next needed tech. Solo has explained this clearly in section 2.5.2 of his Early Landing Strategy Guide (threadid=82209 on this forum).

As Chofritz has said, a good stategy is to get the AI to get to Chivalry, and avoid some primitive techs like HR and WC in the early and mid game. Judicious tech gifting and use of Marco Polo helps here.

However, these primitive techs can be really useful, later in the game. Later in the game, it often become necessary to trade for a primitive tech you do not yet have, to change the order in which the game will present the choices of the next tech to be learned. Again, Solo has showed us the way here- in section 2.5.3 of his post (towards the end of the section) he shows just how effective these late trades for primitive techs can be.

In every one of my recent early landing games, I have saved myself the need to research a useless tech, and hence saved over a thousand invaluable beakers, by trading for one of the ancient techs that I've skipped in the first part of the game, to change the order the game presents the techs to you and enable you to proceed straight to the next vital tech.

It's really quite satisfying: "We note that your primitive society has not yet even discovered Horseback Riding. We desire the secret of Fusion Power! Will you trade???" Oh yes!

Hence, it is really valuable to skip techs like HR and WC, to give strategic researching choice late in the game when it really matters.

	20-09-2003 01:06									#24
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NEVER TRADE FUSION POWER!!!

	20-09-2003 01:37									#25
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NEVER TRADE HORSEBACK!!!
(polytheism is hidden behind it )

	22-09-2003 17:20									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by patrickwl Rah, HR is not completely useless. However, I strongly agree with Chofritz that you should try to avoid acquiring it early in the game.

If you're playing a 2x movement game against another human, and don't take HR as your first tech, you will lose.

On larger worlds I'll take it as my off path tech on the way to monarchy. But again, this is against Human players.

	24-09-2003 00:03									#27
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you guys make some very interesting points....i've been away for quite awhile, but now I'm back I LOVE multiplayer CIV2!!

	24-09-2003 01:12									#28
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Great, but why do all the returning poeple have to be on euro time?

	24-09-2003 01:15									#29
	euro time Increase the size of your Attachments

actually I'm in the mountain time zone here in the good old USA

	24-09-2003 01:50									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

My apologies.
Then go into the control panel and set your time zone.
It defaults at GMT which is why I assumed you were on EURO time. Go to the MP forum and I'm sure you find lots of opportunity to get games.