11-09-2003 01:03									#1
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I was complaining in the main forum about how I feel the tech tree forces certain decisions and how tech is so important that certain techs you have no choice to go for. Asmodean had some good points; does anyone else care to comment on my lack of GalCiv strategy?

	12-09-2003 07:33									#2
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My only comment is that I completely agree with you. There are some techs that are so important one has no choice but to go straight for them. This lack of choice means there is no scope for "tech strategy".

IIRC you were the chap who described the tech research path as "a lock-in". I agree, my research is the same every game virtually regardless of circumstances. (Unlike Imperialism 2 in which I have very different research priorities in different games and really have to think very carefully about my research path).

OTH I have stopped playing GalCiv due to boredom arising from lack of choices. The starting strategy is the same every game (ramp up military to churn out colonist ships to grab planets) and the same research path every game etc etc.

	12-09-2003 17:40									#3
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Asmodean pointed out in another thread that it's late game tech choices that offer more options but whenever I've made it that far my only choice is how I wish to win. I haven't played recently but I'm hoping the expansion pack will help with the lack of choices.

	13-09-2003 13:55									#4
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If you have trouble with the ai's attacking you when you have no military, check vincible's posts on the Galciv.com forum. I manage to win on maso with NO military. Just put all your enemies at war one against another, and give in to acceptable bribes (everything but planets or something which soul put you in the red for more than one month). And trade techs to everyone in exchange for their giving other techs and going to war against anyone.

Indeed you have little choice about expanding: That is a must-do.
But you have several starting tech strategies:
Get military techs in order to build up your military in order to actually attack.
Get only the first military techs in order to build a deterrant fleet of starfighters/corvettes.
Get no military techs, but concentrate on techs the ai doesn't research in order to give them to those ai's that look menacing, and trade these techs for others and diplomatic advantage.

I agree that this is still rather limited. The game is also a bit too hard to mod to change things effectively (a few hard coded effects: yellow stars detection, government changes, and others are tied to a tech id and in 1.05 one ai researches a set tech id path, bad ai behaviour with changes to the colony ship, probably also to constructors).

	14-09-2003 21:00									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon Asmodean pointed out in another thread that it's late game tech choices that offer more options but whenever I've made it that far my only choice is how I wish to win. I haven't played recently but I'm hoping the expansion pack will help with the lack of choices.

It's really a question of playing style. If you want to go the military way, then you have no option than to go for dreadnoughts as fast as you can. I like to play Gigantic galaxies. This gives me more room to maneuver, and then it is possible to play the game that I want: The empire building game. Generally, I like to build up a strong empire, and then win the game by culture or tech.
This involves keeping out of prolonged wars. The way I do that, is by conducting short, well planned offensive wars, that are only started once my forces are strategically placed. Then, once my objectives are reached, i sue for peace at the earliest possible time, thus making it irrelavant if I really have those dreadnoughts or not. It is a hard, but fun way to play, and I must admit that this strategy has failed me at least as many times as it has succeeded.

Asmodean

	24-09-2003 01:02									#6
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I just finished my first game with the expansion, and got my first research victory.

In the entire game, I had two wars with the Arceans, both started by them, and both terminated by them with little action.

My totals at the end of the game were enemy ships destroyed: 57, own ships destroyed: 3.

This was my first ever game I never fought the Drengin, (in fact, they later on surrendered to me, even though my morality was "saintly")

If you don't like the "expand like crazy and race for colonies" thing, change habitable planets to abundand and the galaxy type to tight clusters.

In this last game, everyone except the Yor and the Torians had far more planets than I did, and the Yor and Torians were close.

I started 50% military and 50% research, until I colonized enough, then I went 100% reasearch until I got the whole range of early techs to let me build all the important early galactic wonders. I then switched to 100% social and developed like crazy, getting Gravity Accellerators, Tri-Strontium, and Eyes of the Universe. Minor races beat me to Aphrodisiac and Diplomatic Translators.

My scouts made contact with three minor races, and I was able to trade a bunch of techs with them, then sell them more, once I had the wonders. I then made contact with the other races, and sold them techs. With the cash in my treasury, I was able to sustain a big yearly deficit, and having developed the hell out of my planets, I was able to go back to 100% reasearch for a long time.

I then found the Altarians and nosed around for a good trading planet, so I switched to 100% military to build my first constructors and freighters, then back to 100% research for a good long while.

When the Arceans declared war on me the first time, my "fleet" consisted of a few scouts, three found sensor drones, two found corvettes, and three survey vessels. My development was such that I could crank out six battle cruisers (then the top ship) in two months, from five planets, while the rest did constructors.

Then I went back to research, and selling techs.

None of my "friends" liked the Arceans starting a war with their tech provider, so the Arceans soon found themselves at war with everyone except the Yor, who were too far away. And I didn't even have to ask.

If I got to a resource first, I put a constructor on it, but later in the game, I simply traded away large numbers of techs to get resource starbases off the other races. When I had a 20-25 tech lead, they (a) didn't want to irritate me, since I was such a great trade partner, and (b) would be happy to do almost anything for 8 good techs. In true Ferengi style, I sold the same techs several times, and only when it didn't give me a disadvantage.

My diplomatic relationships never got less than cool with anyone, and I ended up with a total of three cultural, six research, three econ, and five military resources under my control, about 2/3 of them traded for.

This is very different from the character of any of my previous games, so IMO, there is a lot of room for variation in strategy if you at least change the galaxy size and initial conditions.

	24-09-2003 11:54									#7
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I find the strats I need to follow to be very close... more flavors of changes.

What level difficulty you playing? I like to hang at the Norm... it makes a difference in how the AI plays. They use different strategies at different levels.

Here's a cheese for you... trade your bullies 1 influence pt every turn. They'll leave you alone. (Warning! I haven't tried it, but it is recommended by a dedicated MASO player).

MtG, I run 2 turn Colony Ships (& rest research) at the start, until I got enough Colony ships outgoing for each reachable sector with stars... then I swap over to Soil up, and Bank, if I got them... then I go back and forth between Military (cranking out new Colonies) and Research, except when I go for a TG (which I crank, of course).

Early on, you need Banks, and you NEED to get Diplo Translators. And critically... TRADE.

Trade is a good deterrant these days. Make sure to trade with your trouble makers. At normal, I find I rarely need to build a deterent force, as early on, the freighter trade keeps the bullies from wanting to pick on me...

Now, I also tend to play Medium and Large maps... on bigger maps, you won't be trading so easily with people, so they have a chance to decide they want to expand your way easily. But once you got your early game done, you have to go for Battleships, anyways.

If you get bullied a lot though... just go for Battle Axes, and put a BA on each of your worlds... between that and trade, you should be ok, unless you are just at the opposite end of Morality from them. And sometimes, even then. I generally play VERY good... and not even the Dregs generally bother me, as I make sure to target them with freighters.

	27-09-2003 01:28									#8
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quote: Here's a cheese for you... trade your bullies 1 influence pt every turn. They'll leave you alone. (Warning! I haven't tried it, but it is recommended by a dedicated MASO player).

Yes, I tried it and it works, but you'd better have a good diplomacy to get it to work anyway. I personnally find that too boring and cheesy to do. I mean, if you start forgetting to send your influence point, then you will forget altogether and be surprised when the XXX come and declare war.

	07-10-2003 04:32									#9
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Well, I must say that I understand what people are saying about the same basic strategies being used, but I find it to be the same in civ and smac for the most part.

Regardless of what win you are going for, you really have to build up a somewhat capable military or else suffer continuous threats and eventual war. Same in civ and smac since the AI can sense the weakness...a possible flaw? That the AI in these games seem to be programmed to threaten if you are weak? This may seem realistic, but in a GAME, having the AI threaten and warmonger unless you reach a certain military level just FORCES the kind of monotony that we seem to be talking about.

Anyway, once you have basic defenses, you can spread out through the tech tree in the fashion that best suits your goals, but even here, the win you are going for mostly dictates the tech tree path.

I am sure that some have their own strategies for winning without a military etc..and that's what these games are all about. Finding all kinds of new ways to go at it, but overall Galciv follows the TBS playbook I think.

I guess what i'm trying to say, Harry, is that even though I tend to agree with your opening opinion, I don't think that Galciv corners the market in this respect...it's nothing new to the "civ" universe if you ask me.

	11-10-2003 00:47									#10
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quote: Regardless of what win you are going for, you really have to build up a somewhat capable military or else suffer continuous threats and eventual war. Same in civ and smac since the AI can sense the weakness...a possible flaw? That the AI in these games seem to be programmed to threaten if you are weak? This may seem realistic, but in a GAME, having the AI threaten and warmonger unless you reach a certain military level just FORCES the kind of monotony that we seem to be talking about.

I routinely play with no military. I pay the ai's not to go to war with me and, more importantly, to go to war against one another.

The problem I see with the tech choices is that the military choices aren't varied. You could go for offensive ships or defensive ships for example, giving you two paths with a military. Currently, all ships have very similar roles (except Anti Matter Missiles), with battle axes and hammers being not really strong enough to deter a powerful fleet.

	12-10-2003 04:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I routinely play with no military. I pay the ai's not to go to war with me and, more importantly, to go to war against one another.

I understand what you are saying, but I guess my point was that the AI in these civ type games are ALWAYS on the offensive unless you have the might or money to hold them off.

At least that's my experience.

and the point i was trying to make was that it gets tired and old real quick when the AI always threatens you game after game after game.

Making these types of games very monotonous.

I still love the games ironically, just pointing something out.

	12-10-2003 12:48									#12
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I understand your point. Actually, you can have the ai behave in a less warlike manner by lowering the difficulty level.
The problem is if they don't threaten, the game loses its challenge aspect because in Galciv the ai doesn't win if it gets a science victory. In civ, the ai could compete for a spaceflight victory, however (though it was still warlke).

	12-10-2003 22:47									#13
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I wish an AI could me made that tried to outwit, instead of trying to overwhelm you.

The GalCiv AI is probably the best attempt at this ever, but it still falls well short of the human brain.

Asmodean

	23-11-2003 17:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I understand your point. Actually, you can have the ai behave in a less warlike manner by lowering the difficulty level. The problem is if they don't threaten, the game loses its challenge aspect because in Galciv the ai doesn't win if it gets a science victory. In civ, the ai could compete for a spaceflight victory, however (though it was still warlke).

I thought there was an option in the setup screen to allow the AI a science victory...

	23-11-2003 18:44									#15
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Yes; but only after a patch.