12-09-2003 02:00									#31
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I thought most of our subsidies actually end up going to corporate farms.

	12-09-2003 02:03									#32
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They do. What I am saying though, is that they should be phased out and not just taken away. These corporations are getting too big and killing the private farming sector through distribution controls.

	12-09-2003 02:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Cutting out farm subsidies altogether would be a bad idea as food production wold drop drastically unti the 3rd world farmer a) learned how to farm and b) managed up an actual supply... A better idea might be to phase them out, which is actually happening as Corporations take over mom and pop farms... Mom and Pop, though need the subsidies.

3rd world farmers DO know how to farm but they are unable to export to the 1st world markets because of the subsidies and trade barriers put up by the so called supporters of free trade. And what's the use of managing a supply when there is no place to sell it?

	12-09-2003 02:17									#34
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what's the use of a supply that won't meet demand? What's the use of supply that couldn't even make it to market if the trade restrictions were removed?

When be talk about getting rid of farm subsidies they say so matter of factly, like that would solve all the problems at the drop of a hat... IMO, it would be like deregulating a market. You need to phase it out and not cut it out, encourage free trade, remove barriers, and support competition.... Yes, it is not happening now, but killing the current supply in hopes that a new one will be sufficient is suicide... Besides, I am from California, and we will probably be hit the hardest by what is being suggested, so, I am biased.

	12-09-2003 02:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I am biased.

no way

	12-09-2003 02:21									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij 3rd world farmers DO know how to farm but they are unable to export to the 1st world markets because of the subsidies and trade barriers put up by the so called supporters of free trade. And what's the use of managing a supply when there is no place to sell it?

You're right but to be far to Japher's point the 3rd world lacks advanced pest controls and irrigation equipment which is why they periodically have crop failures. They do have market access currently but they can't compete against fat 1st world subsidies.

	12-09-2003 02:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Besides, I am from California, and we will probably be hit the hardest by what is being suggested, so, I am biased.

We do get some decent subsidies but the Euros get about twice what our farmers get on a per unit basis. I believe Japan and Canada have roughly the same levels of subsidies as we do.

	12-09-2003 02:34									#38
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How is this the spread of American culture and value? The article itself says this sort of thing existed in Iraq under Hussein; it was simply oppressed.

	12-09-2003 02:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Good for them. The tide of pornography will abate at some point in the future anyway, and pornography will find its ordinary place in the society. Unless the ayatollahs manage enough support to oppress pornography once again, which will end up making the relationship between society and pornography unhealthy once again. This, with the increase of beer imports, is the best news I've heard from Iraq yet. I'd love to see a society where people want to be "sinners", for they'll be less religious

Thank God!
I'm glad Iraq is not Nigeria, where hundreds were killed because they were upset that The Miss World contests were planned to be held there. If the people want porn, then I doubt fundumbentalist Islam can take hold.

	12-09-2003 02:45									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Verto How is this the spread of American culture and value? The article itself says this sort of thing existed in Iraq under Hussein; it was simply oppressed.

We own and operate the country now. Islamic social conservatives (and there's a hell of a lot of them) will (a) blame us, and (b) use it for propaganda value throughout the Islamic world.

How effective that will be is up for grabs, but far milder "decadent" "amoral" "western" "contamination" helped get rid of the Shah and bring in Khomeini.

	12-09-2003 02:46									#41
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With luck we can addict the male population of Iraq to porn and liquor so that when the Imams come to take their porn from them they will resist.

	12-09-2003 02:48									#42
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To be fair the Shah also had the nasty little habit of having political prisioners tortured and executed. This tends to rile up the natives.

	12-09-2003 02:53									#43
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Off with the Berkas! Iraqi Porn

	12-09-2003 02:57									#44
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You're right. Iraqi porn might not be such a good idea with all of those hairy women with poor personal grooming habits.

	12-09-2003 02:58									#45
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So far they've been banging americans

	12-09-2003 02:59									#46
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Have they? I wouldn't be surprised if a few prostitutes ahve been making cash (that always happens when armies move) but my friends' e-mails haven't mentioned anything about fralocking sex parties of the type which occured when Paris was liberated.

	12-09-2003 03:05									#47
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Banging is a metaphor for other activities as well.

	12-09-2003 03:08									#49
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:shrugs:

	12-09-2003 03:15									#50
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This is neither here or there...on one side, certainly an example of greater freedoms but as MtG said, it is also great material for the social conservatives to use..at best, they will only reach Pat robertson levels and not Khomeini levels.

	12-09-2003 03:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Mom and Pop, though need the subsidies.

And we Europeans suck badly as the EU subsidizes corporations more than Mom and Pop

	12-09-2003 03:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin With luck we can addict the male population of Iraq to porn and liquor so that when the Imams come to take their porn from them they will resist.

This is exactly what I'm hoping for

	12-09-2003 03:46									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This is exactly what I'm hoping for

It's not like that has worked in the US.

	12-09-2003 03:50									#54
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quote: It's not like that has worked in the US

You want to see my hard drive? Or know why I have a second fridge?

	12-09-2003 03:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin To be fair the Shah also had the nasty little habit of having political prisioners tortured and executed. This tends to rile up the natives.

And how many rulers in the mideast, going back to, say... Hammurabi, haven't had that sort of nasty little habit?

	12-09-2003 03:51									#56
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quote: Originally posted by GePap It's not like that has worked in the US.

Your social conservatives can't even hope to ban porn and booze now. The day marijuana (sp?) will be legalised, there will be no coming back as well.
Your social conservatives sure may cry, and they sure may still exist and be noisy, but they'll only be effective on very few topics of the everyday life. Except if the average American is able to stop watching porn and drinking booze in order to feel closer to Jesus

	12-09-2003 03:55									#57
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The only thing that keeps the social conservatives from tryin is that darned annoyong constitution..the geenral publci would not for a second oppose a significant ban on porn, in the name of the children..booze, not, but porn...the day people don;t switch the channel in shame, or get their videos but make sure a fake billing reason appears on thei credit report is the day Social conservatives failed.

	12-09-2003 03:57									#58
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quote: And how many rulers in the mideast, going back to, say... Hammurabi, haven't had that sort of nasty little habit?

Point taken.

	12-09-2003 04:03									#59
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drugs to follow? macdonalds? homeless people? missionaries? cnn? democracy at its best.

	12-09-2003 04:07									#60
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dead ppl? repression/oppresion? lack of personal freedoms? facism at it's best.