12-09-2003 03:41									#31
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quote: From what I've gathered from a couple of Mexican friends, he seems to be politically irrelevant in Mexico, as long as he doesn't try anything big (that's when they slap him around some, but just enough to leave him walking/talking, as they don't want to enrage all you lefties more than necessary).

Kinda like Pat Buchanan in the early 90s in the US then?

	12-09-2003 03:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or rather libertarianism is just a neo-liberal approach to everything .

Indeed. However, I don't know if the Libertarians believe supply / demand / utility logic dictate everything in life or not. Some neoliberals sure do (Gary Becker) think you choose your wife, your number of kids etc. based on such reasoning.

	12-09-2003 03:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Funny how all those "anti"-globalization protestors look Mexican and not at all like white suburban kids from el norte.

Because if the gringos come down to raise hell, the gringos will have hell to pay. They don't have the huevos.

	12-09-2003 04:00									#34
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quote: Indeed. However, I don't know if the Libertarians believe supply / demand / utility logic dictate everything in life or not. Some neoliberals sure do (Gary Becker) think you choose your wife, your number of kids etc. based on such reasoning.

Well, of course, I was being a bit facetious. However, I do agree with Becker that utility determines your number of kids. Maybe not actively, but unconsciously you decide to have kids whether or not you can afford the change in your lifestyle and change in money.

	12-09-2003 04:02									#35
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quote: Well, of course, I was being a bit facetious. However, I do agree with Becker that utility determines your number of kids. Maybe not actively, but unconsciously you decide to have kids whether or not you can afford the change in your lifestyle and change in money.

Well, rational people do so, anyway.

	12-09-2003 04:03									#36
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Yes... but it is quite shocking for most people to be told that they picked two kids and got married at the time they did because of mostly economic and utility reasons. Even though it might have been obvious at those times.

	12-09-2003 04:04									#37
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I'd say that people who have kids while holding economic factors to be irrelevant are both irresponsible and irrational.

	12-09-2003 04:05									#38
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I plan my whole life out. I didn't get married til I could afford it, and I am not going to have kids until I can afford them too... I'm also waiting for my release forms from the psyche ward, they should be here any day.

	12-09-2003 04:07									#39
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quote: ... all those who are different. That is to say, the immense majority of humanity.

You know, this is a very poorly written piece. No specifics, all generalities, no plans of actions, all emotion, no reason, etc. etc.

Hell, the guy doesn't even sound angry. What sort of revolutionary is he?

	12-09-2003 04:08									#40
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd say that people who have kids while holding economic factors to be irrelevant are both irresponsible and irrational.

I'll call and raise you "immoral" and "unfit".

	12-09-2003 04:08									#41
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Libertarian Communist = Anarchist.

Those anti globalisation protesters should focus not on first world governments, but on the third world governments who let their citizens be 'exploited'

	12-09-2003 04:11									#42
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No. They just want all the 1st world countries to come down to 3rd world level... It's the same thing with most socialist nations who ask other countries to change so they don't have to... Who is doing the work here?

Change is made through effort on that you wish to change, not by asking someone else to do it for you.

edit: wrong thread

	12-09-2003 04:11									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Markos is a Mexican-American who recieved a left leaning education in the US and then returned to MExico in order to start a revolution. Also as usual Markos and his fellow leftists have no solutions. Instead he claims that foreign investors wish to enslave people but he can't come up with one viable way on how to increase the number of jobs or help the enviroment other then to chase the foreigners out. Markos and his leftist ilk will only further harm the indegious people by, still more, retarding their economic growth and leaving them in ever worsening poverty.

Subcommandante Marcos has never been 100% positively identified, however, the most likely identification of him is as a former university professor in Mexico who dropped out of sight shortly before the first appearance of the EZLN in Chiapas.

wrt "solutions", he may not have some from your perspective, but he's not trying to take over the country or compete in the global economy. Most of the EZLN's constituency are indigenous Mayans, many are not Spanish speaking or speak it only as a second language, and they are not particularly interested in being "assimilated" into an alien majority culture. Development to them means the major destruction of their way of life, their independent culture, what degree of self-sufficiency they have, and the character of their ancestral lands. They don't want 500 channels of TV, minivans, and movie theaters.

Marcos' and the EZLN's solutions have been to achieve a virutal stalemate with the national government, and to essentially reach an equilibrium of "if you people will just **** off and leave us and our lands alone, we can ignore each other just fine."

Concentional "western" development in Chiapas will benefit the indigenous peoples there last and least, and at a very high net price to them. There are not enough of them to have much political clout, except in their own territory. Marcos may not be moving his people forward, but they are more or less staying in place, more or less self-sufficiently (they have some organic coffee coops that make great coffee, and some other export industries, plus a bit of drug running to keep them in Kalashnikovs for internal security), and more in control of their own destiny than they would be as a small minority of bottom end working class in a poor southern Mexican state.

It is laughable for Marcos to talk about "liberty" and such, as the EZLN is fairly classical commu-despotism, but it's inaccurate to consider him just another commie revolutionary.

	12-09-2003 04:18									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I think he sounds fine... hope that's not a shocker. One of Mexico's biggest problems is their lack of pride in identifing as a Mexican... Most of them won't say they are Mexican. They say they are Myan, Incan, or some other aborigional tribe...

You don't know much about Mexicans, do you?

Incans are from South America, and pochos like you have up there in San Jose aren't real Mexicans, even though their ancestors some generations ago were.

Come on down here and tell people they have no pride in identifying themselves as Mexican, lol.

	12-09-2003 04:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It is laughable for Marcos to talk about "liberty" and such, as the EZLN is fairly classical commu-despotism, but it's inaccurate to consider him just another commie revolutionary.

Says the man who wanted to look like El Che.

Anyway, after I saw that other post I now know who SM is.

	12-09-2003 05:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by JCG He has decent to good PR but no real chance of making any of his words into reality, IMHO. From what I've gathered from a couple of Mexican friends, he seems to be politically irrelevant in Mexico, as long as he doesn't try anything big (that's when they slap him around some, but just enough to leave him walking/talking, as they don't want to enrage all you lefties more than necessary).

Of course he's politically "irrelevant" - Mexican politics is dominated from the Federal level, and has seven decades (which Fox has done precious little to change in any meaningful way) of a single-party rule with a peculiar combination of paternalism, socialism (when convenient) and plantation/colonial capitalism. The EZLN really isn't looking to export their system to the rest of the country, they're looking to maintain control over their de facto dominion in parts of Chiapas and Oaxaca.

They do that pretty well, because unless the Army goes there in major force, which pisses off everyone. If the Army goes there in less than major force, they get their asses handed to them, which is even more unpopular, because some working stiff's conscript kid gets shot up for ****ing with some other working stiff. The PFP and other paramilitary police forces have gone down there a bit in the past (relatively rarely under Fox and Zedillo before him) and beat up and shot up some locals to send a message, but the EZLN itself has never been thumped really hard. The terrain suits guerilla fighters and the local populace supports them for the most part.

A more or less permanent stalemate is the situation now, and it'll be that way for a good long time.

	12-09-2003 05:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Says the man who wanted to look like El Che.

El Che was great, as long as you don't count his fighting abilities or ability to pick good places to start up revolutions.

Besides, I just picked that photo because those three were the first example I could think of for three well-known despotic thugs, two of whom were brothers. It fit the OT them so well, don't you think?