19-09-2003 17:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Marid Audran I hate dealing with intermediary unrest and corruption whilst "waiting" for your government to re-form.

OEDO YEARS.

	19-09-2003 17:38									#32
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If you don't know anything about Oedo years, or just want to be able to print out a list for the level of your choice ([cough] Ahem - deity [cough]), then visit this thread for all your Oedo needs. It's included in the Great Library, which is stickied at the top of the Strategy page.

	19-09-2003 18:23									#33
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Agreed. HG yes, Oracle no.

Congrats on making the move to Deity! You'll never look back.

Add to my list of bad habits (noticed in current game) -- Inadequate use of diplomacy for tribute etc., even when I have Marco Polo. I just never got into the habit...

	19-09-2003 20:55									#34
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Unless I'm record shooting, I lay low on the tribute, since it's too easy and seems kind of unfair. It's not like you need to pillage their treasury to kick their butt.

	19-09-2003 21:15									#35
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Yeah, I think that's why I've never gotten into it much.

I'll never subject myself to the kind of serious record-shooting that was common here 2-3 years back.
But I do like to set personal records from time to time, and I'm guessing that a bunch of early tribute would give me a considerable boost compared to my usual scores.
(I track conquest/landing dates as much or more than Civscores.)

	19-09-2003 22:32									#36
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More important than using the money is denying the AI using it. They can't bribe your cities if they have no money.

	19-09-2003 22:39									#37
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AI city bribes are pretty rare before the modern era, in my experience.

	20-09-2003 01:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Agreed. HG yes, Oracle no.

I did fairly well in one of the EL Comparison Games with an early Oracle, skipping MT until someone else discovered it lategame whereupon I swiped it and built MC. No one else discovered THE before I launched.

Not a strat for a more normal game...

	20-09-2003 02:11									#39
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But it does seem that happiness wonders are not a big priority for AIs since they don't suffer the same happiness problems as the human player at Deity.

	20-09-2003 20:59									#40
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Turn-screwing - Hurrying thru turns too quickly and not taking stock of what's happening with the various aspects of my civ, and how to improve on them.

Jac.

	23-09-2003 02:47									#41
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Thanks for the feedback all. Just returned from a chess tournament in Denver over the weekend.

I actually did try building the Hanging Gardens but the AI beat me to it. It seems to be the only happiness wonder the AI takes care to build, actually. Well, perhaps an AI neurotic obsession with Shakespeare's Theatre and the Cure of Cancer exempted, but those two are non-critical IMO.

Concerning the Oracle; two extra content citizens is nothing I disdain against in the ancient period of the game! True, its effects tend to cancel relatively early but careful planning to construct J.S. Bach's Cathedral swiftly after theology can tame the loss of its boon. The fact that theology isn't an advance on most AI's favored researching paths (I've observed) helps too.

	23-09-2003 23:47									#42
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quote: Originally posted by rah Unless I'm record shooting, I lay low on the tribute, since it's too easy and seems kind of unfair. It's not like you need to pillage their treasury to kick their butt.

couple of things here...

do you restart until you get a good starting position? Or, of course, do you always play what you get - no matter how crappy? and if you do get a crappy start (island with nothing but mountain and swamp) is it still easy to kick their butts everytime??

And... if yes to the last question - why play?

	24-09-2003 00:14									#43
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a lot of interesting points here...i just recently got back into Civ2 after far too long...i think i'll leave work early & try out a few of the pointers i just picked up. thanks!

	24-09-2003 00:15									#44
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When I first started playing SP, I used to look for the perfect start, now after many years of MP, I'll take almost anything it hands out. (but there was one MP game that I started on a one square Island.) Fortunately I had a tech so I didn't have to ask for a restart.

	24-09-2003 08:20									#45
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My most pernicious bad habit is to build roads in the beginning instead of cities. I wonder when the best time to start roads is? Certainly not before Trade.

And all the other previously mentioned habits - JOMT, Who is Oedo?, what was I just building? Oh golly, I shoulda asked for tribute 6 turns ago, etc.

But the worst is playing way too much instead of paying attention to RL. MWHC has a fellow traveller.

	24-09-2003 09:51									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Marid Audran I actually did try building the Hanging Gardens but the AI beat me to it. It seems to be the only happiness wonder the AI takes care to build, actually. Well, perhaps an AI neurotic obsession with Shakespeare's Theatre and the Cure of Cancer exempted, but those two are non-critical IMO.

Shakespeare is crucial for OCC only. In normal SP games, it has 2 uses: build it in your Super Trade/Super Science City city to facilitate celebrating it up to size 20+ easily. Or when playing representative governments, home all your ships there, to ease unrest.

I agree that CfC is nice but not essential - it helps with celebrations in the mid to late game (see below)

quote: Concerning the Oracle; two extra content citizens is nothing I disdain against in the ancient period of the game! True, its effects tend to cancel relatively early but careful planning to construct J.S. Bach's Cathedral swiftly after theology can tame the loss of its boon. The fact that theology isn't an advance on most AI's favored researching paths (I've observed) helps too.

I would take HG before Oracle, simply because happy citizens are harder to come by than content ones. You can make people content with Temples, Cathedrals, or Colosseums - nothing but HG and CfC will make people happy (other than by bumping the luxury rate way up. Oh, and Courthouses in Demo ).

Having the HG in your capital or SSC means you can keep it celebrating in Monarchy all the way up to size 6 (with temple and martial law), and the extra trade from celebration is really good to have. Add a library and market, even the Colossus perhaps, and you have a huge cash cow in the early game.

Also, when you try to keep cities celebrating, having the first citizen automatically happy makes it easier to keep the celebration going with fewer luxuries. And HG makes celebrations with an odd number of citizens feasible (as does CfC).

	24-09-2003 14:20									#47
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quote: Originally posted by rah Fortunately I had a tech so I didn't have to ask for a restart.

Was this tech Map Making by any chance?

quote: Originally posted by Grigor My most pernicious bad habit is to build roads in the beginning instead of cities. I wonder when the best time to start roads is? Certainly not before Trade.

Some early roads are useful to have a hoss defend a number of cities against barbs/the enemy, but if you have already established a trade route then you can build roads to boost the long-term arrow potential of this route, even if the initial pay-off is not as great because the roads aren't adding extra science to the city, but you can get around this by just using the maximum amount of arrows for the moment you make the delivery - moving all your workers in the home city to water or trade specials and then putting them back once the caravan has been delivered so you don't starve the people.

	24-09-2003 19:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by rah When I first started playing SP, I used to look for the perfect start, now after many years of MP, I'll take almost anything it hands out. (but there was one MP game that I started on a one square Island.) Fortunately I had a tech so I didn't have to ask for a restart.

kinda side-stepped my question...

	24-09-2003 19:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Grigor My most pernicious bad habit is to build roads in the beginning instead of cities. I wonder when the best time to start roads is? Certainly not before Trade.

I'll do some roading before Trade - the extra arrow can be important if you have HG and are celebrating. But I don't follow any hard and fast rules. Usually you can get 2+ arrows by using the Settler that's building the road to build a city, instead.

	24-09-2003 19:49									#50
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Unless I'm playing OCC then I'll just take what I'm given and be glad of it. In OCC, despite my success with three specials, then I shall reload many times until I get within walking distance of a 4 special spot. In my current OCC there is nothing I can do (short of cheating) to stop getting NON troops from every single hut I pop! Not that I would want to do anything of course as I'm making contact with loads of other civs and don't need any boats yet.
This is a 3 special by the sea and the tech seems to be going too slowly for my liking. Still, things will pick up now I've given Republic to all known civs. It doesn't mean they'll use it of course, but they have the option to if they want (hint, hint).

	25-09-2003 17:51									#51
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DOY, no it wasn't mapmaking

MWHC, I don't think I sidestepped it. But to clarify.
When I first started playing i succumbed to using the reload option (unless it was a record attempt) and restarted bad starts. But after we started playing mp regularly I didn't do it anymore because you got used to it not being an option. Granted I haven't played many sp games since then but those I did, I took whatever start it gave me and have never come close to losing. There was even one game that I got such a great start that I quit it and restarted after about 20 turns because I knew it was already over for the AIs.

	27-09-2003 02:25									#52
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quote: (originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man) I'll do some roading before Trade - the extra arrow can be important if you have HG and are celebrating. But I don't follow any hard and fast rules. Usually you can get 2+ arrows by using the Settler that's building the road to build a city, instead.

Exactly, STYOM. One road in a city radius can also be crucial if the city has no other way of getting a trade arrow. (although Slow Thinker questions even that early in the game). But building a settler is nearly always better.

I have spent many enjoyable hours playing the CivII Demo (to 1000bc) to see which strategies work best for the early game. I have not found a start yet in which virtually roadless ICS was not the optimal plan at first. However, my desire to civilize my empire makes roading a constant temptation. And if one waits too long the caravans can't get around in time to build those WOWs on time.

The road for horse defence is an interesting idea. I usually have enough cities by 3150BC to withstand the loss of a city, and so the 2 extra turns to road seems a high price to pay in the early game.

	27-09-2003 09:51									#53
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I hate losing cities in the early going. If I have few, it can be mildly crippling. If I have many, losing one can turn a great game into a good one

I semi-ICS in the early going... but I always want that one city with HG/Colossus in it if I can, and that requires starting a wonder very early. And consequently, building 5 fewer Settlers.

	29-09-2003 18:20									#54
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In MP, if you lose your second settler or city early(deity so everyone starts with two), you're toast unless you get really really lucky from huts.

	01-10-2003 05:57									#55
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Impatience and laziness are my sins, so that I let relations with allies and other civs lapse into the negative zones. The eagerness to sometimes achieve an advance ("it's just the next turn") makes me neglect the important micromanagement of the F6 and F4 screens.