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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 21:23
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RIAA sued by consumers!!! Heh heh heh..... Remove this text

quote:
Consumers strike back, sue RIAA
By Liane Cassavoy, PC World.com
September 12, 2003 9:35 am ET

After taking its antipiracy campaign to court, the music industry is finding itself on the receiving end of a lawsuit that challenges its purported amnesty program as a fraudulent business practice.

The Recording Industry Association of America Inc. announced its Clean Slate program Monday, when it filed suit against 261 people for copyright infringement as a result of excessive use of peer-to-peer services. The Clean Slate program purports to offer amnesty to repentant file-swappers who promise to stop using peer-to-peer services to illegally download copyrighted works and to destroy any copies of downloaded audio files.

To qualify for the amnesty program, applicants must fill out a sworn affidavit that requires a full name, address, telephone number and e-mail address, have it notarized, and send it to the RIAA. In turn, the RIAA agrees not to "support or assist in any copyright infringement suits based on past conduct," according to the organization.

But the offer is neither clean nor a sweep, says Ira Rothken, the Marin County attorney who filed the consumer lawsuit Tuesday in California Superior Court.


Not the RIAA's Call?

The RIAA claims the amnesty program "would provide people with a clean slate, but after a further reading of the legal documents, it became apparent that this Clean Slate program didn't provide any such thing," Rothken says.

"The legal document provides no release of claims, no promise not to sue you. It offers no promise to actually clean the slate by destroying the data that these people provide," he adds. "All it says is that the RIAA simply will not cooperate in any lawsuit brought against you. That on its face is a deceptive business practice."

And the offer is deceptive because the RIAA does not own the copyrights in question, Rothken says. The music labels -- RIAA members -- are the plaintiffs, he says. But because the RIAA is leading the charge, people think the RIAA has the power to promise not to sue them, when it doesn't, Rothken says.

"Any of the RIAA's members could file suit against these individuals who have participated in the Clean Slate program, and subpoena the information they need from the RIAA about this person's guilt," Rothken says. "So, in the end, the person who supplies all this information to the Clean Slate program will have a dirtier slate than they would have if they never participated."


RIAA Stands Firm

The RIAA disputes this interpretation, saying the affidavit form, which is available on MusicUnited, is not deceptive.

"Read the form, it's pretty clear what's being offered and who's offering it," says Jonathan Lamy, an RIAA spokesperson.

"Apparently no good deed goes unpunished," Lamy adds of the criticism. "It's also unfortunate and ironic that some lawyer would try to prevent others from getting the assurance that they want, that they won't be sued."

Rothken's law firm is not the first organization to warn people about potential danger in the RIAA's amnesty program. Last week, before the RIAA formally announced its plan, the digital rights group Electronic Frontier Foundation warned users against accepting the RIAA's amnesty offer.

"Stepping into the spotlight to admit your guilt is probably not a sensible course for most people sharing music files online, especially since the RIAA doesn't control many potential sources of lawsuits," Wendy Seltzer, EFF staff attorney, said in a statement last week.


Murky Music

Cary Sherman, the RIAA's president, addressed these concerns Monday when announcing the copyright crackdown and amnesty deal. He rebutted suggestions that participating in the Clean Slate program could prove costly.

"We have pledged to keep this information solely for our use, for our records of people who should not be sued," Sherman said. He said the RIAA would not release the data to copyright holders who might intend to sue.

Unconvinced, Rothken went a step further than simply warning consumers about the program's potential pitfalls and filed a complaint under the California Business and Professions Code. His lawsuit asks the court to end the RIAA's program as "unlawful, unfair, and deceptive." The RIAA's "guarantee not to sue file sharers" is designed to mislead the public into incriminating themselves by giving the RIAA "admissions of wrong-doing."

The RIAA's intentions remain unclear, says Deborah Peckham, a partner in the Patent and Intellectual Property Practice Group at Testa, Hurwitz & Thibeault in Boston.

"It's really too soon to say whether these people are putting themselves at risk by participating in this program, but the allegations made in (Rothken's lawsuit) are not without some merit," Peckham says. "In essence, what the RIAA is doing apparently is collecting these affidavits and storing the information somewhere. The concern is that that information is going to be spread among the music companies, and there's nothing in the agreement that would bar those companies from suing the users."

Peckham has reviewed some of the suits filed Monday, and confirms that the RIAA is not named as plaintiff in any she has seen.


California's Standards

Rothken's complaint cites California law that says fraud may exist not only if a consumer is injured by the business practice in question, but if there is the potential for injury.

"The only standard is that the business practice in question is likely to deceive reasonable members of the general public," Rothken says

This law also allows one citizen to be named as a plaintiff to represent the general population. In this lawsuit, that citizen is Eric Parke, a former paralegal who has not used peer-to-peer networks to download music illegally, according to Rothken.

"In California, our law allows people who are unaffected by the business practice in question, people who would not have traditional standing to sue, to serve as the plaintiff," he says. One reason for this, Rothken says, is that people who stand up against large organizations could be retaliated against, and may be unwilling to come forward.

The lawsuit now goes to the California Superior Court, but Rothken cannot guess when the case might be heard. He does expect the court will insist that the RIAA make good any amnesty offer.

"The court will likely tell the RIAA that if they're going to promise amnesty and a clean slate, then you have to do something that delivers on that promise; for example, you have to offer a release of all claims. Or, if you can't do that, you have to stop the promise, don't call it amnesty," Rothken says. "It's likely the RIAA will have to admit that they don't have the authority to release all claims, because they don't have the power to stop these lawsuits, because they don't own the copyrights."


Who cares if it doesn't work; it's just nice to see them with their ass cheeks bared for a change.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 22:00
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Put an end to popups!

****ers

Harry Seldon is offline Harry Seldon
King
Birmingham, AL
Oct 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 22:53
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Put an end to popups!

I bet this gets closed in.... the next ten minutes.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 22:55
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Naw, why close it?

Soul Survivor is offline Soul Survivor
Settler
UChicago
May 2003
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 22:56
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it seems like there's another new thread like this every hour

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 22:57
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but this one is different

this one is getting spammed!!!

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
Prince
Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:00
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japher

+0

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:01
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Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah, it's no fun to spam for +1

there's really no point

and it defeats the purpose

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:12
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Suffering from ads?

Don't you mean spam for +0?

Whaleboy is offline Whaleboy
Prince
Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:16 Visit Whaleboy's homepage!
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RIAA:

Consumers:

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by elijah
RIAA:

Consumers:


don't consumers in general pay for things?

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:20
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No, they just consume things.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:24
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Another thing I just thought of... how is the RIAA going to prove these people have the songs in question without actually confiscating their computers? And what happens if I suddenly format my hard drive. How is the RIAA going to prove I actually had the songs in question? Personally, I don't think they are capable of winning such lawsuits.

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Another thing I just thought of... how is the RIAA going to prove these people have the songs in question without actually confiscating their computers? And what happens if I suddenly format my hard drive. How is the RIAA going to prove I actually had the songs in question? Personally, I don't think they are capable of winning such lawsuits.


stealing something and throwing it away doesn't absolve u.

on kazaa u can get songs offered by users. I'm sure they come to court w/ a list of songs offered by xxx.x.xxIP

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:31
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quote:
stealing something and throwing it away doesn't absolve u
but the RIAA has the burden to show that something was actually stolen...

quote:
on kazaa u can get songs offered by users. I'm sure they come to court w/ a list of songs offered by xxx.x.xxIP
and then they have to prove so and so was at the other end of that PC... without a body, there's no murder...

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
but the RIAA has the burden to show that something was actually stolen...

and then they have to prove so and so was at the other end of that PC... without a body, there's no murder...


proof in civil court isnt so strenuous. the list of songs offered by ur ip on such and such a date. download a few samples maybe? I don't think it'd be very hard to overcome the burden of proof that u actually posessed copyrighted material on ur computer and were offering it on kazaa.

JohnT is offline JohnT

Emperor
Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:36
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Please, it's "you're" not "ur". "Ur" is an ancient Mesopotamian civilization.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:30
  Old Post 12-09-2003 23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by yavoon


proof in civil court isnt so strenuous. the list of songs offered by ur ip on such and such a date. download a few samples maybe? I don't think it'd be very hard to overcome the burden of proof that u actually posessed copyrighted material on ur computer and were offering it on kazaa.
well, we shall see... I recall the old saying... you can put wings on my grandma, but she still won't fly.

quote:
Please, it's "you're" not "ur". "Ur" is an ancient Mesopotamian civilization.
don't bother John, you'll have more success getting me to like Bush than you will having yavoon create coherent, grammatically correct sentences.

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
King
Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 00:16
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The first real battle against the RIAA has to be clearly defining "fair use" of legally purchased music.

Harry Seldon is offline Harry Seldon
King
Birmingham, AL
Oct 2002
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 00:36
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I thought DMCA effectively eliminated most forms of fair use.

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 01:44 Visit Immortal Wombat's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Please, it's "you're" not "ur". "Ur" is an ancient Mesopotamian civilization.

It was a city.

realpolitic is offline realpolitic
Prince
Rogue States of America
Mar 2002
time: 21:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:04 Visit realpolitic's homepage!
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The "amnesty program" is entrapment. Those bastards deserve to get sued.

realpolitic is offline realpolitic
Prince
Rogue States of America
Mar 2002
time: 21:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:06 Visit realpolitic's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava

don't bother John, you'll have more success getting me to like Bush than you will having yavoon create coherent, grammatically correct sentences.


Yeah, but who is more likely to use gramatically correct sentenses, Bush or Yahoo?

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

Donate to the Red Cross

Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:13
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quote:
Another thing I just thought of... how is the RIAA going to prove these people have the songs in question without actually confiscating their computers? And what happens if I suddenly format my hard drive. How is the RIAA going to prove I actually had the songs in question? Personally, I don't think they are capable of winning such lawsuits.

Hacking our computers. What, you haven't heard the Orrin Hatch "warn 'em two times and destroy their computer the third" quote? Thankfully, the RIAA is as computer incompetent as anyone so I'd put their hacking skills above script kiddies but below amoebas.

Oh yeah, and by the way: to the guy who's suing.

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Please, it's "you're" not "ur". "Ur" is an ancient Mesopotamian civilization.


I deeply apologize for ur inability to read short hand.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
Please, it's "you're" not "ur". "Ur" is an ancient Mesopotamian civilization.


Don't bother, just put him on ignore and save your brain cells.

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
well, we shall see... I recall the old saying... you can put wings on my grandma, but she still won't fly.

don't bother John, you'll have more success getting me to like Bush than you will having yavoon create coherent, grammatically correct sentences.


well if I was a judge and the RIAA came up w/ documentation giving time/place/ip then showed the available music for download. then connected the person to that ip. i would say that it is far more likely than not that they posessed those songs at that point in time. ur idea of a "centimeter of doubt in the universe." doesn't work in this conversation because thats not the standard.

mrmitchell is offline mrmitchell
King

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Sep 2002
time: 23:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:26
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quote:
I deeply apologize for ur inability to read short hand.

JohnT, you've got to admit, capitalisation and punctuation is a good start

Usually, yavoon, people who say "ur" etc.'s opinions are devalued because the majority of 10 year olds on the Internet use it or things worse than it. If you MUST do this kind of thing, then don't shorten words like "you" at least. A sentence without first letter capitalised could be taken seriously, but "u" is a much more major hit to credibility.

Chats are an exception: Often you do not have a lot of time to prepare for talking in them. However, in forums, there is a lot of time in which you can clearly and properly express your thoughts.



[obligatory "riaa sucks" comment]

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld


Don't bother, just put him on ignore and save your brain cells.


yes join the bandwagon against short hand. it is infinitely easier to dismiss someone off a prejudice than off an idea. I can see ur easy kind of ppl.

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:30
  Old Post 13-09-2003 02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by mrmitchell

JohnT, you've got to admit, capitalisation and punctuation is a good start

Usually, yavoon, people who say "ur" etc.'s opinions are devalued because the majority of 10 year olds on the Internet use it or things worse than it. If you MUST do this kind of thing, then don't shorten words like "you" at least. A sentence without first letter capitalised could be taken seriously, but "u" is a much more major hit to credibility.

Chats are an exception: Often you do not have a lot of time to prepare for talking in them. However, in forums, there is a lot of time in which you can clearly and properly express your thoughts.



[obligatory "riaa sucks" comment]


sorry. I am not concerned about ppl who make leaps of prejudice. I understand they will always flame me. and I let them have their ignorance.

 
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