12-09-2003 23:43									#1
	Gunbattle in Fallujah, Iraq: US, Jordanian forces open fire on Iraqi Police Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...main/index.html





What a cluster****

	12-09-2003 23:48									#2
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quote: U.S. forces fired on both the police and suspects, witnesses said.

	12-09-2003 23:50									#3
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I wonder if the US will use this to help recruit new Iraqi police forces...

"Uncle Sam wants YOU! ... to become a policeman so we can shoot you!"

I dare speculate on what a US soldier might say when interviewed about the incident.

"They're Iraqis, and they had guns... so I shot at them. They all look the same to me."

	12-09-2003 23:54									#4
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quote: Witnesses said the vehicle that Iraqi police were pursuing got away.

	12-09-2003 23:54									#5
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**** happens. Many of the american soldiers are propably so stressed up by mines and random attacks that they look at everyone as an enemy. It's hard to tell if there's something about the incident that makes it a understandable misstake. It doesn't look good in any case.

	12-09-2003 23:55									#6
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Sadly, this event illustrates the fact that the US Armed forces ARE NOT A POLICE FORCE. Send the UN peacekeepers NOW!

	12-09-2003 23:58									#7
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This reminded me of the marines in "Aliens":

quote: Look I'm telling you there's something moving and it ain't us!

	13-09-2003 00:04									#8
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UN peacekeepers are not a police force either.

	13-09-2003 00:06									#9
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True, but some countries with a lot of experience of UN peacekeeping, not something the US got, ought to be better than the american army.

	13-09-2003 00:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH UN peacekeepers are not a police force either.

funny, they seem to be doing all right in Kosovo...

	13-09-2003 00:12									#11
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Oh, woohoo, the U.S. has gunned down more innocents...Har har har...

	13-09-2003 00:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin True, but some countries with a lot of experience of UN peacekeeping, not something the US got, ought to be better than the american army.

Given the long and glorious history of UN peacekeeping forces around the world, I'm sure they would do just great.

	13-09-2003 00:16									#13
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Seriously, why does the US have these problems with peacekeeping? They must have experience from previous missions, they participated on the Balkan too. And what is with Military Police - wouldnŽt they be right for a lot of tasks? Or are generally not enough MP forces available? Just wondering....

	13-09-2003 00:19									#14
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As far as I can remember, the US forces usually leaves after the action is over, leaving the everyday work to others.

	13-09-2003 00:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I wonder if the US will use this to help recruit new Iraqi police forces... "Uncle Sam wants YOU! ... to become a policeman so we can shoot you!" I dare speculate on what a US soldier might say when interviewed about the incident. "They're Iraqis, and they had guns... so I shot at them. They all look the same to me."

Nice spin, but don't let anything like a fact get in the way. From the linked article:

"Iraqi police said that the shooting began when three gunmen in a BMW fired at their station in Fallujah, 43 miles (about 70 kilometers) west of Baghdad. The police said they pursued the men in unmarked vehicles and fired at them.

U.S. forces fired on both the police and suspects, witnesses said.

"The shooting started at about 1 in the morning," one witness said. "It got heavier and heavier.

So unmarked vehicles running amok at 1 am firing weapons is a US ****up? Get real. It's a war zone, and when shooting starts, especially at night (ever worn night vision gear?), the guy who hesitates to try and figure out what's going on is the guy most likely to get hosed.

There's a real simple rule of survival: "When in doubt, wipe 'em out."

	13-09-2003 00:25									#16
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I think three things speak against the US soldiers as "peacekeepers"

1. The US military (while in transition) is still equipped and trained to fight wars against conventional armies (as they did in Iraq). I think that in the future, at least a proportion of US forces will be trained differently and will be more effective as 'peacekeepers'.

2. Americans have less exposure and tolerance of other cultures than other countries. This means that the average US soldier in Iraq is not likely to care about "winning the hearts and minds" of the average Iraqi.

3. From my experience the best combat soldiers (as units) are the worst 'peacekeepers'.

	13-09-2003 00:28									#17
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as far as i can tell the troops did nothing wrong. Fault lies with Bremer and the civilian occupation authority, which has not managed to supply the Iraqi police with Sirens, flashing lights, etc.

	13-09-2003 00:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat So unmarked vehicles running amok at 1 am firing weapons is a US ****up? Get real. It's a war zone, and when shooting starts, especially at night (ever worn night vision gear?), the guy who hesitates to try and figure out what's going on is the guy most likely to get hosed.

It's a real **** job policing Iraq, especially if you're trained for warfare and not policing. You can barely blame the soldiers, rather ask the politicians about what tasks they assign to whom.

The only issue is, were the troops fired upon (that is the military version I think)? If there was a gun battle between two groups, it is a somewhat strange reaction to shoot at both "just to be sure". Even if they were fired upon, did they not realise that two other groups were fighting? It's perfectly possible, but that needs to be looked into.

And no matter how much one despises the Bush regime (and it's tough to beat me on that one), it is tasteless to laugh about people killed, be they bystanders, Iraqi police, or US soldiers.

	13-09-2003 00:35									#19
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quote: So unmarked vehicles running amok at 1 am firing weapons is a US ****up? Get real. It's a war zone, and when shooting starts, especially at night (ever worn night vision gear?), the guy who hesitates to try and figure out what's going on is the guy most likely to get hosed. There's a real simple rule of survival: "When in doubt, wipe 'em out."

What if the Iraqi Police killed eight American soldiers? Would you be so understanding if the situation was reversed?

	13-09-2003 00:35									#20
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The Iraqi police should have called the American forces in the area to let them know what was going on before simply acting like a bunch of keystone cops. While the loss of life is sad and tragic, it's also their own fault.

What they hell did they think U.S. soldiers in a combat zone were gonna do when a flying squad of cars firing guns came hurtling at them?

	13-09-2003 00:36									#21
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The US troops in Iraq are trained to kick ass, so that's what they do whenever a problem occurs. As long as they were encountering regular enemy soldiers, that worked fine, but kicking ass is a very counterproductive method to win the heart of civilians.

Support the troops - send more ammo!

	13-09-2003 00:39									#22
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quote: There's a real simple rule of survival: "When in doubt, wipe 'em out."

I think this quote exemplifies why society sends its mouth-breathing grunts to die in foreign lands...

	13-09-2003 00:48									#23
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Iraqi police should have called the American forces in the area to let them know what was going on before simply acting like a bunch of keystone cops. While the loss of life is sad and tragic, it's also their own fault. What they hell did they think U.S. soldiers in a combat zone were gonna do when a flying squad of cars firing guns came hurtling at them?

i still wanna know why they didnt have sirens, etc. Somebody screwed up royally.

	13-09-2003 01:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark i still wanna know why they didnt have sirens, etc. Somebody screwed up royally.

I agree, but it wasn't the soldiers.

	13-09-2003 02:58									#25
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The story of the BBC is slightly different:

'US troops 'kill Iraqi police'
US troops are said to have opened fire on police giving chase to a car

American troops have mistakenly killed at least eight Iraqi police officers at a checkpoint in Fallujah, west of Baghdad, witnesses say

It is thought the men who died had been chasing a car carrying suspected thieves and the Americans opened fire when they failed to stop at a roadblock.
The incident appears to be the second friendly-fire case in the past two days in the flashpoint town, about 50 kilometres (30 miles) west of Baghdad.
And in the nearby town of Ramadi two American soldiers were killed and seven wounded in a pre-dawn raid on Friday.
The BBC's Barbara Plett in Baghdad says it appears there were three police vehicles - one an unmarked pick-up with a rear-mounted machine gun - chasing a fourth vehicle containing gunmen.
There are conflicting reports about what happened as the cars reached the US checkpoint. The US military has said only that one of its soldiers was injured in an attack involving small arms fire near a Jordanian Red Crescent hospital.
But survivors say that despite repeatedly shouting to the Americans "we are police!" the US soldiers kept on firing for 45 minutes.
It is thought the Americans may have opened fire on the police vehicles after being surprised by the armed pick-up truck.
Our correspondent says the latest incident will almost certainly set back US efforts to calm this volatile region, where there is fierce resentment of the occupation and anger at the number of locals killed by US forces.
On Wednesday, US troops in Falluja shot dead at least one Iraqi policeman and wounded another when their convoy was hit by a bomb.

'Hospital hit'

Iraqi witnesses said police from Falluja were chasing a white Mercedes without licence plates when it passed through the checkpoint on Friday.
US troops manning the checkpoint reportedly opened fire on both vehicles after they failed to stop and witnesses said three gunmen travelling in the Mercedes were killed.
The Arabic al-Jazeera satellite channel said the Jordanian Red Crescent hospital near the checkpoint was hit by gunfire.
Angry crowds gathered outside the police headquarters in Falluja in protest against the deaths, the Associated Press news agency reported.

Flashpoint town

Falluja, a stronghold of supporters of ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, has been the scene of frequent clashes involving US troops.
The Falluja Protection Force was set up by the US military with volunteers to help Iraqi police impose law and order.
Correspondents say anti-US resistance has been strong in the town since American troops killed 16 demonstrators there in April.
In other parts of Iraq the situation is very different.
In the Shia-dominated province of Najaf, south of Baghdad, no US soldier has been killed or wounded in combat since April.
But in places with a largely Sunni Muslim population in and around Baghdad, on some days there are as many as 20 separate attacks on US forces.'

(source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3102920.stm)

According to this story only one of the police vehicles was unmarked:
...there were three police vehicles - one an unmarked pick-up with a rear-mounted machine gun - chasing a fourth vehicle containing gunmen...
And the Iraqi police tried to communicate they were the police:
...survivors say that despite repeatedly shouting to the Americans "we are police!" the US soldiers kept on firing for 45 minutes...

quote: i still wanna know why they didnt have sirens, etc

I think P.Bremer should answer this question...

The past months I have read several stories in my newspaper ('NRC Handelsblad') describing American soldiers mercilessly firing on civilians driving cars, by day and by night. Hands up didn't save them...

	13-09-2003 03:14									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think this quote exemplifies why society sends its mouth-breathing grunts to die in foreign lands...

Well, what would you do, except cry like a ***** for your mommy?

Reality in the field is something you're utterly unqualified to comment on, but that's never stopped your trolling on any other subject of which you're completely ignorant.


"Gee, guys, can you stop and identify yourselves so we all know who to shoot at?"

	13-09-2003 03:15									#27
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It's a bad situation all around, that's for sure. I know it won't bring the men back who lost their lives, but I hope some sort of compensation is planned for the families of the police officers who lost their lives.

Gatekeeper

	13-09-2003 03:17									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman What if the Iraqi Police killed eight American soldiers? Would you be so understanding if the situation was reversed?

I'd be rather surprised and professionally curious at the inability of the US troops in that scenario to organize resistance, and return effective fire, but **** happens in combat, especially at night.

	13-09-2003 03:24									#29
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quote: Well, what would you do, except cry like a ***** for your mommy?

I'd identify my target and not shoot at friendlies.

quote: Reality in the field is something you're utterly unqualified to comment on, but that's never stopped your trolling on any other subject of which you're completely ignorant.

Not at all, I've been shooting since I was 8. But I have no military combat experience, but regardless, I know I could handle it. And that's also the beauty of Democracy. Everyone has a voice and can express their opinions, despite your objections. And your personal attack gives much credit to your position.

quote: "Gee, guys, can you stop and identify yourselves so we all know who to shoot at?"

That's exactly what police officers have to do. This is NOT a warzone as you so eloquently put. The war is over. This is an occupation where there are innocent NC's, friendly combatants, and enemy combatants. And that's precisely the point I made. The US military is not qualified to play policeman. They're qualified to shoot first and ask questions later. Everything you have said thus far has supported my point.

	13-09-2003 03:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by S. Kroeze The BBC's Barbara Plett in Baghdad says it appears there were three police vehicles - one an unmarked pick-up with a rear-mounted machine gun - chasing a fourth vehicle containing gunmen.

So a mixed convoy of vehicles chases another vehicle, every one with guns blazing, through an American security checkpoint?

quote: There are conflicting reports about what happened as the cars reached the US checkpoint. The US military has said only that one of its soldiers was injured in an attack involving small arms fire near a Jordanian Red Crescent hospital.

quote: But survivors say that despite repeatedly shouting to the Americans "we are police!" the US soldiers kept on firing for 45 minutes.

Had the Americans kept up any steady fire for 45 minutes, there likely wouldn't have been any survivors. And just because some ******* they had reason to believe was firing on them said he was police, or George W. Bush, or Santa Clause, or The Flying Nun, are you gonna stick your head up to see? That's the oldest trick in the book. Identification (especially at night) has to happen before forces are engaged.

quote: It is thought the Americans may have opened fire on the police vehicles after being surprised by the armed pick-up truck.

If they were travelling together, or appeared to be, then wouldn't you?

At the very least, some form of dragon's teeth type obstacles need to be set up to limit the approach of vehicles to these checkpoints to low speed and no-maneuverability.