13-09-2003 19:55									#1
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...post-modern and modern? I mean generally, not related to art. Isn´t post-modern just nonsense? What comes next: post-post-modern, post-post-post-modern?

For me we are still in a "modern" era - which recycles itself.

So who proves me that I´m wrong?

	13-09-2003 19:57									#2
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I do with this simple assertion: you're as wrong as wrong can be.

Damn, that wasn't as hard as I thought.

	13-09-2003 19:57									#3
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What can i say, it's just more meaningless jargon See my recent posts on Where do you stand politically

	13-09-2003 20:00									#4
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I do with this simple assertion: you're as wrong as wrong can be. Damn, that wasn't as hard as I thought.

Ha, take my rolleyes counter attack!

quote: What can i say, it's just more meaningless jargon

Nono, I´m sure it is a concept that will change our lives forever, we just don´t understand it

	13-09-2003 20:00									#5
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It's all relative, like anything else.

	13-09-2003 20:02									#6
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Of course! We are not worthy!

	13-09-2003 20:02									#7
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I am sorry. I am so angry at postmodernists, that I have to cool down before I write down my full explained answer.

	13-09-2003 20:04									#8
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Modernism- the idea that human progress can solve every concievable problem. Prevalent roughly from the Enlightenment to 1960-something, but more specifically 1900-1960.

Post-Modernism- the realisation that such a quest is futile and that our perception is more-or-less subjective in every case, since we're so driven by our language and culture and stuff.

	13-09-2003 20:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Ha, take my rolleyes counter attack!

And I will Fez you in counter-attack!

You provide no evidence! You just want to destroy post-modernism, you criminal!!!!

	13-09-2003 20:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Modernism- the idea that human progress can solve every concievable problem. Prevalent roughly from the Enlightenment to 1960-something, but more specifically 1900-1960.

Errm - there are a couple of modernization theories that do not follow the naive "progress is always good" path, but reject post-modernism.

	13-09-2003 20:08									#11
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And I will Fez you in counter-attack! You provide no evidence! You just want to destroy post-modernism, you criminal!!!!

That´are just post-modern destructive tendencies that opress me!

	13-09-2003 20:08									#12
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follow this link:

http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/

	13-09-2003 20:11									#13
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Yeah, you can never have enough -isms in your text!

	13-09-2003 20:18									#14
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I hope that wasnt meant as a critic-ism! sorry, i know that was an extremely bad pun, but couldnt resist

	13-09-2003 20:43									#15
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I think that basically it's what Buck Birdseed said and in the arts it, not unexpectedly, translated into enthusiasm for modern creations and the age of disellusionement for port modernist works.

	13-09-2003 20:46									#16
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Modernism.

Post-Modernism.

	13-09-2003 21:03									#17
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postmodernism

	13-09-2003 21:26									#18
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Postmodernism is not very useful.

	13-09-2003 21:28									#19
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If you're a post-modernist you don't believe anything is.

Anyway, I find Discourse Theory (for instance) very helpful.

	13-09-2003 21:42									#20
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I don't think one can say "postmodernism isnt useful". Its simply here. It is the product of society and specific historical events (and intelectual "elites" granted) and reflects a reality with which you can or not agree but its here. In that view you can say postmodernism is useful as a means of reflecting on reality and then you can (ironically) reject postmodernism and try to change reality but by know you grasp said reality more fully because of postmodernism.

	13-09-2003 21:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Anyway, I find Discourse Theory (for instance) very helpful.

Yeah of cource it is, if you want to deny the holoucast for example.

	13-09-2003 21:45									#22
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It is however not a point which cannot be debated. There are a number of critics of postmodernism, some even (as I said above) say a postmodern society doesn´t really exist, we are still in a "modern" society, but our views on what is "modern" change as modern society "re-invents" itself in an ongoing process.

Edit: I mean post-modernism, not the holocaust, evil x-posts....

	13-09-2003 21:47									#23
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I find post-modernism pessimistic, and non-constructive.

	13-09-2003 21:51									#24
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Bebro, yes but I think this is just playing with semantics. One can think of it as an evolution inside of modernism which is incorporated into it (but IMO one cant because postmodernism rejects fundamentals of modernism) or he can say that there's a line where societies stepped into postmodernism but kept going(?), to something else. in anycase "postmodernism" is there. But isn't necessairily the terminal, final point, (certaintly not in my opinion)

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 13-09-2003 at 21:58

	13-09-2003 22:06									#25
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quote: If you're a post-modernist you don't believe anything is. Anyway, I find Discourse Theory (for instance) very helpful.

That's a contradiction though.

quote: I don't think one can say "postmodernism isnt useful". Its simply here. It is the product of society and specific historical events (and intelectual "elites" granted) and reflects a reality with which you can or not agree but its here. In that view you can say postmodernism is useful as a means of reflecting on reality and then you can (ironically) reject postmodernism and try to change reality but by know you grasp said reality more fully because of postmodernism.

Careful, I said it was not very useful. It's not totally useless, since it provides entertainment and employment for intellectuals. I don't see how an belief that reality is ungraspable can be helpful in grasping reality, either.

	13-09-2003 22:08									#26
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quote: Careful, I said it was not very useful. It's not totally useless, since it provides entertainment and employment for intellectuals. I don't see how an belief that reality is ungraspable can be helpful in grasping reality, either.

that goes to my sig line.

	13-09-2003 22:16									#27
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I think postmodernism serves as a warning bell. And obviously it is here as reality has shown. It is a product of specific failures or too high dreams that reality vomited. That doesn't mean raising our hands up and say ok that's it. But you cant go on as everything is just peachy because postmodernism, simply, exists. Learnign from it instead of burrying your head in the ground is preferable IMO. You dont have to agree with everything it says either.

	13-09-2003 22:32									#28
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Bebro, yes but I think this is just playing with semantics.

Which is of course the same some think about the term postmodern

	13-09-2003 22:35									#29
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But no if one accepts that it can't be incorporated semantically to modernism since the latter term contradicts postmodernism main fundamentals.

(argh i was this close to writing pornmodernism, i must get some fresh air)

	13-09-2003 22:44									#30
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The point is that these scholars doubt that there are truly postmodern characteristics - they argue that what we see as problems or failures does in fact indicate modernity (and its risks). Problems of modernity do not neccessarily justify the creation of a new era (what "postmodern" suggests), because our societies are not that fundamentally different from those pre 60ies societies, even when we look on all problems related to modernity.

Of course, nothing to start a flame war about it