13-09-2003 23:28									#1
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I was reading the Bible today, as is my practice on the Sabbath, and I read something that I had thought about (and maybe undrestood before). What I read is in John where Jesus says that he will send a conforter (The holy spirit) and that the comforter could not come unless he left. Now what my question is, what was the Holy Spirit doing before Jesus? What I read seemed to suggest he was no involved here on earth. But it always seemed to me that the Holy Spirit was fundamental to being saved. So how did people get along before hand? What I am figuring is that I am misinterpreting this passage, I am interested in what other beleivers interpretations are.

Jon Miller

	13-09-2003 23:29									#2
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can I get an Amen!

	13-09-2003 23:33									#3
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sabbath? its saturday...

	13-09-2003 23:43									#4
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After resurrection, Jesus went to Purgatory and brought to Heaven all those who worshipped God and brought them to heaven.

At least, that's what my understanding is...I could be completely wrong...

	13-09-2003 23:47									#5
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That's Catholic right?

I guess that does get arround the whole 'what happened before the holy spirit question?'. I find purgatory unsatisfactory though (I don't really believe in hell (although this could be considered our earth I guess) or purgatory and have a very materialistic view of heaven (some planet somewhere where God bases His operations).

Jon Miller

	14-09-2003 00:45									#6
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Before Jesus, the Holy Spirit only worked through a select few, specifically the prophets like Ezekiel and Isaiah and kings like David. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be available to ALL believers.

So, that is the big difference. Before Jesus, the Holy Spirit was only available to a select few. After Jesus went to Heaven, the Holy Spirit was available to ALL Believers.

	14-09-2003 06:14									#7
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quote: I am interested in what other beleivers interpretations are.

Jon Miller:

First off, it helps to work with the passage.

John 14:15-18

"If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

quote: that the comforter could not come unless he left.

Not quite... Jesus only said that he would ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit as to comfort all the believers, in the absence of Christ on Earth.

quote: what was the Holy Spirit doing before Jesus?

Here's a good summary from: http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/pneuma/holysp.htm

A. He took part in creation (Gen.1:2; Job 33:4; Psalm 104:30).

B. He guided and protected Israel (Isaiah 63:10-14).

C. He spoke through prophets to produce Scripture (1 Peter 1:11: 2 Peter 1:20,21).

D. He selectively and conditionally indwelt certain people in the Old Testament (Joseph – Gen.41:38; Joshua – Num.27:18; Saul – 1 Sam.10:9,10; David – 1 Sam.16:13 etc.). The Spirit’s indwelling was specifically related to enabling someone to do a particular task. The Holy Spirit could cease to indwell a person because of their disobedience. The Spirit left Saul (1 Sam.16:14). When David sinned he pled that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11).

quote: But it always seemed to me that the Holy Spirit was fundamental to being saved. So how did people get along before hand?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is a central part of salvation, but as I have shown, has always played a role in encouraging people to believe in God.

	14-09-2003 06:17									#8
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quote: sabbath? its saturday...

Andyman:

Jon Miller is a Seventh-Day Adventist who celebrates the Sabbath on Saturday.

	14-09-2003 06:18									#9
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Go out and kill some heathens

Or more preferably, don't

In any case, don't believe a word. It's just a myth.

	14-09-2003 06:20									#10
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No, Jesus did not go to Purgatory. He descended to Hell to bring forth and redeem those virtuous souls who died before he was coming. Note this Hell was not the Hell of the damned, but a seperat place like Limbo. Note in his passage of Lazarus and the Rich man a wide chasm is said of existing between them.

As for what the Holy Spirit does, according to the Catholic intepretation he guides and directs his Church on Earth.

	14-09-2003 08:27									#11
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But "hell" comes from the hebrew "sheol" meaning "grave", nothing more, nothing less.

	14-09-2003 11:11									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Jon Miller: First off, it helps to work with the passage. John 14:15-18 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Not quite... Jesus only said that he would ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit as to comfort all the believers, in the absence of Christ on Earth. Here's a good summary from: http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/pneuma/holysp.htm A. He took part in creation (Gen.1:2; Job 33:4; Psalm 104:30). B. He guided and protected Israel (Isaiah 63:10-14). C. He spoke through prophets to produce Scripture (1 Peter 1:11: 2 Peter 1:20,21). D. He selectively and conditionally indwelt certain people in the Old Testament (Joseph – Gen.41:38; Joshua – Num.27:18; Saul – 1 Sam.10:9,10; David – 1 Sam.16:13 etc.). The Spirit’s indwelling was specifically related to enabling someone to do a particular task. The Holy Spirit could cease to indwell a person because of their disobedience. The Spirit left Saul (1 Sam.16:14). When David sinned he pled that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11). Yes, the Holy Spirit is a central part of salvation, but as I have shown, has always played a role in encouraging people to believe in God.

Thanks

now that I see those verses I recall them

it says something about the state of my Bible study that I didn't recall the existence of any of them (but the Gensesis 1:2 one which does not discuss the Holy Spirit's relation to us)

In John 16 Christ says that the comforter (The Holy Spirit) was suppose to convince the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgement (according to the version I have in hand, New Revised Standard), this seems very key to salvation and I was wondering what people were doing before hand

Jon Miller

	14-09-2003 11:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker But "hell" comes from the hebrew "sheol" meaning "grave", nothing more, nothing less.

Interestingly enough, one of my favorite works of Byzantine art is the Anastasis, also known as "The Harrowing of Hell," a fresco in Istanbul's Chuch of St. Savior in Chora. It depicts Christ's descent into Hell, where he opens its gates and redeems the saved:

The Harrowing of Hell

Notice how Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out of Hell, but also out of their graves (or, technically, sarcophagi). Clearly, as late as the early 14th Century, the origins of "hell" as "the grave" were still being acknowledged.

	14-09-2003 13:26									#14
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A much more thorny theological question is this.

What happens to the people who never had heard of Jesus, and thus could not have embraced him, before they died?

	15-09-2003 03:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller In John 16 Christ says that the comforter (The Holy Spirit) was suppose to convince the world concerning sin, righteousness and judgement (according to the version I have in hand, New Revised Standard), this seems very key to salvation and I was wondering what people were doing before hand Jon Miller

They had The Law. And for those who did not have the law, they '... do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts..' NAS Romans 2:14-15.

	15-09-2003 03:36									#16
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"The pouring out of the Spirit of Truth provides the spiritual foundation for the realization of great achievements in the interests of the human race of the bestowal world."

"The supposed casting out of devils since the arrival of the Spirit of Truth has been a matter of confounding a belief in demoniacal possession with hysteria, insanity, and feeble-mindedness. But just because Michael's bestowal has forever liberated all human minds on Urantia from the possibility of demoniacal possession, do not imagine that such was not a reality in former ages.
The entire group of rebel midwayers is at present held prisoner by order of the Most Highs of Edentia. No more do they roam this world on mischief bent. Regardless of the presence of the Thought Adjusters, the pouring out of the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh forever made it impossible for disloyal spirits of any sort or description ever again to invade even the most feeble of human minds. Since the day of Pentecost there never again can be such a thing as demoniacal possession."

	15-09-2003 05:15									#17
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Quoting an unnamed source... not very useful.

And demon possession does still happen, because not all people have the Spirit of Truth.

	15-09-2003 06:21									#18
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No it doesn't because yes they do.

http://www.urantia.org/papers/toc.html

	15-09-2003 06:25									#19
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Nice to see all the believers. Now that I'm out on the godless eastcoast (hehe) I forget there are still people of faith around.

Not that I can really add to the discussion, I don't really read the Bible much, nor do I go to church as much as I used to... but uh..... yay God!

	15-09-2003 07:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie In any case, don't believe a word. It's just a myth.

So which are you -- a heathen, infidel, or heretic?