05-05-2000 23:05									#1
	Terrian Cheat in RedFront Get a bigger avatar today!

It is not a secret that transforming 'no transformation' terrians can produce rivers. This happens to be convenient in playing RedFront since the base time for engineers to transform terrian is very short (1/20 of that in regular games).

It works for all terrians except minefield, plains, tundra, and grassland.

Use labor brigades to transform the terrians (for example, a forrest square). After several turns they will become 'bone with river', then you hit 'i' to irrigate them and instantly they become 'oilfield on river'. You can even improve existing oilfields by transforming them into bones and irrigate -- adds rivers to them.

How nice you can produce another caucasus region on the eastern edge of the map and get tons of money from trading convoys between them! You even have excess human resouces to do this -- just build cities with your refugees when the first winter comes and disband them to get NONE labor brigades!

I have also tested this in TOT games, especially the fantasy game. A lot of the terrians in undersea and underground maps can be improved, giving much needed elements (in undersea, shields; in underworld, trade arrows).

	05-05-2000 23:37									#2
	Suffering from ads?

Oh man. So What?!

What exactly does this have to do with Red Front? Your discovery is nice, but I think everybody can discover this for himself, or he doesen't.
And if this is allowed by the Civ2 rules, then why is it cheating?

------------------
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30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
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	06-05-2000 00:51									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

back off Stefan, people play your scenarios too... why do you get so angry at every RF related post?

Xin's post applies directly to RF and may apply to other scenarios with unique terrains. Designers need to be aware that if a square can be terraformed into something that is not intended, it needs to be prevented by using something like swamp or jungle that can't be created.
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited May 05, 2000).]

	06-05-2000 01:31									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What I mean to say is:
The people who play Red Front seem to make up rules by their own. When something is allowed by Civ2 Rules, it is legal to any scenario.

Unless, of course, someone writes a RF rulebook.

I'm not saying "don't play Red Front"- I play it myself once in a while.
But it's kinda silly that every time someone discovers something there which makes things easier, he immediately says that's cheating. Go ahead, write an RF rulebook. That would make things a lot easier, so that people will do everything as the author apparently designed it.

And I don't get angry at every RF post, I leave them alone. But I just think that this is an exaggaration.

	06-05-2000 01:47									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Stefan: Indeed the bug exists in all scenarios which puts 'no' on transforming terrians. When the terrian is transformed the results would be a coal with river, then if further developed with irrigation, mining, or transforming, it would become desert with river.

What is interesting in RF is that transforming needs a lot shorter time and the desert is now oilfield. These has made the terrian transforming bug much more subject to abuse.

	06-05-2000 02:34									#6
	Got spare money?

Somehow I don't think Exploits should be considered a legitimate strategy of any kind.

	06-05-2000 03:07									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

That's why I put 'cheat' in the title .

	06-05-2000 03:17									#8
	Tired of ads?

Oh yeah, that's what I was irritated about.

LEARN HOW TO SPELL TERRAIN!!!

	06-05-2000 03:55									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks. That was all caused by playing only on diety level...

	06-05-2000 13:51									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

diety=deity
minefield=?
forrest=forest (unless you're writing "Forrest Gump)

quote: What is interesting in RF is that transforming needs a lot shorter time and the desert is now oilfield. These has made the terrian transforming bug much more subject to abuse.

	07-05-2000 00:32									#11
	Got spare money?

Stefan:
The Base time for engineers to transform terrain is reduced from 20 to 1 in redfront. Takes 2 labor brigades (engineer unit) 3 turns to transform a forest.

Minefield is a terrain type in redfront.

Because I played on 'Diety' level I wrote 'Terrian'.

	07-05-2000 01:44									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

No offense, but I play on Deity level.

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	07-05-2000 03:35									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I play on 'Gottheit'

I checked both the rules of RF and a normal game and indeed there is a lot of difference. Perhaps Nemo can explain what exactly he did.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

	07-05-2000 06:48									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I am interested in this... What is the exact nature of this transform bug. Apparently it turns some/any (?) terrain that has transform set to no into some(?) other terrain with river and ressources? please clarify.

The transform command is supposed to be used only to convert plains/grassland/tundra (Fast move terrain)into minefields. Because this is supposed to happen quickly (Lay barbwire, bury mines) I lowered the time requirement to the minimum. All other "transforms" are done through the mining/irrigation method that is set to take a long time. The big improvement is not supposed to be creating new oil fields but building industry around the cities...

If someone knows exactly what is affected by the cheat I will remove it version 1.941

	07-05-2000 07:05									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If a LAND terrain is 'no', you can actually transform it into 'coal with river'. Then any improvement except building roads(irrigation, mining, transformation) will change the terrain to 'desert with river'.

This is a designer's tip to create river on existing maps. It should be somewhere in this forum. Once the river is created, it stays when you use the cheat mode to get whatever terrain type you want.

In order to get rid of a river maybe (I guess) you can change the terrain to ocean then change back.

Captain Nemo: To counter the cheat you just give the transofrming effect to the square itself -- Drt to Drt, For to For, etc. However, maybe under the Urals there were hidden oils and the refugees could have dug it out during the WWII...

	07-05-2000 09:18									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This transform bug has been known for some time, I wrote a paragraph about it for Leon Merrick's Advanced Design Tips, here it is:

Adding rivers after you start designing your scenario
It has long been thought that rivers could only be created in the map editor. Now, thanks to LeMay and Harlan Thompson, this is revealed not to be the case. To create rivers:
1) Open up the rules.txt file and change the base time for engineers to transform terrain in the cosmic principles section to zero (0). Also in the rules.txt file, temporarily change the terrain that all the terrains you plan to alter are transformed into to "no". After you have finished making rivers, change them back.
2) Create three (or more on other terrain types. For example, mountains take eight) engineers on each of the squares you want rivers to appear. Lastly, create any unit of that civilization off to one side (see next step for why).
3) Select the unit off to one side, and give it any order. This "initializes" the method, and tells the program that all future sets of engineers will be making funky terrain. Without using the mouse, issue the "o" (transform) command to engineers on the squares you want rivers to appear on as they start blinking in turn. As the third engineer on a desert, plains, or grassland square (or more on any other terrain) receives the transform command, the terrain will turn into a odd river/coal/desert combination.
4) To restore the proper terrain type, simply use the cheat menu to alter terrain. All the funny-looking graphics will disappear, but the river will remain.


I wouldn't recommend it for anything except adding rivers once the file is in .sav format. There are some wierd effects, like river graphics appearing on adjacent squares, and the view cursor graphic "sticking" on the square.