15-09-2003 06:52									#1
	I am slow Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

But I finally put together the comment-stripped source package for Activision. That's what was holding things up, not anything at their end, so heap your insults upon me, not them. Unless it takes a long time from now too, then it's them, not me .

Anyway, they still need to slap some license and copyright notices on it, and maybe a simple installer (self-extracting zip or whatever) and then it should be out.

The only thing that's going to hold up making it work immediately for those of you who download it is the lack of Miles sound libraries. It is unfortunately a commercial library, and can't be included with the release, nor is it a free download. Someone will need to a) strip references to it from the code, which shouldn't be too hard but will leave you with a soundless but otherwise functional game, and b) write a replacement for Miles to get sound in the game again, which may take a fair amount of work .

Anyway, that and a few more things are covered in the brief README I wrote to go with it. I look forward to seeing what comes of all this!

	15-09-2003 11:24									#2
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I play with all sound off anyway (thats not to say the sound is bad, i play music is all) Thanks Senor Ogre!

	15-09-2003 12:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Great stuff Thanks, MrOgre.

Ever since it was announced that the source code would be released I've been spending my spare time trying to learn about C++ and Object Orientated Programming. Never bothered before because SLIC doesn't support classes and all I ever wanted to do was to play with CTP2.

It's a pity that all the comments had to go so we can't expect little gems like this from John Carmack's Doom:

quote: #define INV_ASPECT_RATIO 0.625 // 0.75, ideally // Defines suck. C sucks. // C++ might sucks for OOP, but it sure is a better C. // So there.

	15-09-2003 13:14									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

its ok i don't even have a soundcard

	15-09-2003 17:37									#5
	Got spare money?

Good news Mr Ogre

So it seems that the release of the source code is imminent and that is important.

Well, I guess the lack of sounds doesn't sound so terrible in the event of the source release. I am sure there will be some workarounds with two of them already indicated by you.

I think the most tough thing to deal with will be the luck of comments. And there's a question of mine. Did you strip all comments or some? If all then I hope we have some help from you to better understand the code. A little help, not much of your time

	15-09-2003 19:21									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

feel a:shamed: !!!!!!!!!

But anyway: What takes long will end good (free transalation from a German saying)

I only hope you still left some comments in

I hope you have done a good job

And sound: which sound??????? Wo needs it, it isn't an Action game, so what.........

	15-09-2003 19:58									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Any news is excellent news Thanks for the update

	15-09-2003 20:45									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We are getting closer thanks for the status report Mr Ogre.

quote: Originally posted by Keygen Did you strip all comments or some?

That is also a quewstion of mine. Winnie indicated that it is not a good idea to remove everything that is in the comments, like the pacman stuff. So did you used the easy way to remove everything that is not important or did you strip them all per hand and left for instance unfinished code?

quote: Originally posted by Gilgamensch And sound: which sound??????? Wo needs it, it isn't an Action game, so what.........

I need sound , or how should I test my slic code without needing to write and put in a messagebox, just a PlaySound here and there and I know the stuff is executed.

Anyway we will find a way to replace these sound libraries. So what is there for gratis download or what is there that can be used instead?

-Martin

	15-09-2003 20:57									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Great news, Ogre .

Martin, I think we can start looking for alternatives when we get the source...

	15-09-2003 21:09									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

All comments are gone, sorry. It's a large code base, and hand pickiing stuff to remove, or not remove, would have been a very time consuming task.

Replacement sound libraries: I suggest either writing to DirectSound, umm, directly, or using SDL, a cross platform library for sound and graphics (which will make porting to other operating systems easier if anyone gets really ambitious).

	15-09-2003 21:32									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the news Mr Ogre.

I agree with Martin, though I never use the music I appreciate the other sounds for the atmosphere they create and because they are also indicating whether something has been accomplished or not.

	15-09-2003 22:25									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ahh, all comments gone . That means that the code parts unfinished are also gone, some of them at least.

I know sh*t about how sound works in this game, but why can't just the simple API function be used to play a wav file? The function was very simple, and then all we have would be to declare it, and write a better front-end function for it that would take the wav file name as parameter.... why all the Miles stuff, and something else?

	16-09-2003 00:23									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

Apparently the Miles sound library has quite a few features that make it superior to using plain API functions or writing your own lib. Makes sense for Activision to use it instead of reinventing the wheel.

However, if I understand Mr. Ogre correctly, the problem is that unless you happen to be a licensee of the Miles lib, you can't compile the code. So the very first thing you have to do is clean the code so that Miles is no longer used anywhere. This will take a while, depending on how deep-ingrained and/or cryptic the Miles references in the code actually turn out to be.

	16-09-2003 02:00									#14
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According to Mr. Ogre, stripping Mile from code shouldn't be too hard.

quote: strip references to it from the code, which shouldn't be too hard but will leave you with a soundless but otherwise functional game

And I do believe that we would be able to throw a replacement up quickly somewhat. A simple API function for the working prototype, and at some point see what feautures are we missing from Miles, and code those in somehow.

	16-09-2003 02:35									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Simple DirectMedia Layer (SDL)is quite popular and was used by Mr Ogre to port CTP1 to Linux. Here's a link to the audio subsystem.

	16-09-2003 03:11									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

DirectSound and DirectMusic is really easy. I already have initialisers and engines for DS and DM written.

	16-09-2003 09:13									#17
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Ah.. the first challenge awaits...

*** Pyaray sits back in his comfy chair with a tub of popcorn waiting for the show to being ***

Pyaray

	16-09-2003 14:51									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Pyaray: When I worked in aerospace, the mission critical code got developed at a rate of about 1 line of code per hour. In the game industry, it's several hundred times that.

I have a suspicion that, at least initially, one line per hour will prove to be quite an optimistic goal for us. Pyaray better have a big tub of popcorn.

	16-09-2003 21:15									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Considering that the first thing to do is remove code (the Miles sound library usage), your speed will initially be a negative number of lines per hour. At least it'll be easy to pick up the pace from there.

	17-09-2003 03:47									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs I have a suspicion that, at least initially, one line per hour will prove to be quite an optimistic goal for us. Pyaray better have a big tub of popcorn.

And a massive coke to go with it!

	17-09-2003 18:54									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

For people wondering where to start from here you've got your answer: Miles Sound System

	19-09-2003 01:14									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Glad to hear that the source code will be out soon! Finally, after many moons, we'll get the code so we can make the game that will put Sid out of business!

	19-09-2003 01:40									#23
	Got spare money?

Near future...

CTP2 source code team: There! We've finally finished fixing all the bugs. Sid Meier, you'll be out of business in no time.

Sid: Well hurry up. I'm 97 years old and I'd like to enjoy a few years of retirement before succumbing to blissful dementia.

	19-09-2003 04:07									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Aias Glad to hear that the source code will be out soon! Finally, after many moons, we'll get the code so we can make the game that will put Sid out of business!

To be honest, after the Civ3/PTW/Conquests fiasco, and other titles like Gettysburg, and what I've heard on Pirates 2, Sid is fast going out of business himself!

Doesn't need help from us.

	19-09-2003 20:38									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To be honest, I can't see how are you happy about Sid going out of business. While I didn't like PTW too much, I liked Civ 3 a lot, but OK, that's my personal opinion. But, Civ 1 was a masterpiece, as everyone here will agree, and it's Sid we have to thank for the very concept of Civ.

	19-09-2003 20:54									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't think that anyone really want's Sid out of business.

Any comments are more likely a response to the "civ3 officianodos" that are constantly talking about how badly the CTP series sucks....whether they've played them or not.

To some extent, however, the reverse is also true

	21-09-2003 09:18									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

To defend my comments above, I just want to point out a couple of things:

1. Sid Meier fans believe him to be the "be all and end all" of computer game design. He's not. He's made as many flops as he has classics. Yes, while everyone will agree games like Civ1, Pirates, Railroad Tycoon, colonisation are awesome games, but there's just as many flops like Gettysburg, Dinosaurs, etc.

2. Yes, Sid was the first designer to strike the Civ-genre. But there's so many other Civ-styled games which are heaps better than the Civ and CTP series. While Sid started the genre, he hasn't really progressed it since. But take EA Sports. They started the 3D sports genre, and every year take it another step forwards. Westwood with RTS. Each one moves the mark a little bit further. Sid has not taken his advantage and used it.

3. His name selling games? Not really anymore. Civ3 didn't do as well as everyone was expecting, and why? To the older gamer his name is synonymous with the classics, but to new gamers, his name is known for his flops. PTW has done even worse (last figures I heard was that there was only half as many PTW's in gamers hands than Civ3). Conquests isn't getting have the raves Civ3 originally got on game sites.

Conclusion? The Sid name has ended. Unless he can produce another world-wide stunner, he's going to lose gamers to cutting-edge games. And what does that mean? Out of business. While I don't wish it so, it's inevitable on the line he's currently chosen.

Say what you will, that's my view.

	21-09-2003 22:17									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Dale,

The definition of games being "flops" is very subjective. It's obvious that many people will say Gettysburg was an excellent game.

The true deal is, Sid didn't do much of designing in Civ 3. I'm sure it would be much better with him actually designing, but I'm still going to get Conquests, just because I can't fail to get a Civ game.

EA Sports, subjective, too. They just keep adding feautures in every new incarnation of their game, but they don't really feel too different for my liking...

	22-09-2003 13:39									#29
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EA sports: Many people consider those features as patches, but they are still being sold as new games.......... not sure if this is better.....................

And Yes: Sid is mainly known to older gamers.............when games where still games and not videos

	23-09-2003 22:20									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Are we getting a bit off-topic here?