15-09-2003 08:12									#1
	The Future of Working. Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok, this is something I have been thinking about quite a lot recently.

"The poor stay poor and the rich get richer". Soon, this will be a saying that won't be said anymore.


I believe, that the Government won't ALLOW, EVERYONE (capable of working) in a short space of time, to be rich (I mean, rich enough to have a GOOD STANDARD of living and not having to work at some "low" paying job).

The reason I say that the government won't allow everyone to be rich, is because I can see now, that rich people, don't want to do all the REALLY important jobs that matter.

For example, a rich person would most likely not join the army, clean the streets, stack shelves, clear rubbish, etc. These sorts of jobs, if stopped, would cripple the country in days. The country, REQUIRES to have people who are "forced" into taking, low paying, or rather, crappy, "easy-to-get" jobs.

But, I believe, that we are in a very long process, of more and more people finding it easier to raise their standards of living, and not having to take on crappy jobs. I think, eventually, machines (robots, computers), will do most of the jobs that countries REQUIRE in order to function each and every day.

Therefore, the government, would see no reason to keep the poor in their place, and thus, a vast majority of the country, will be living in a medium to high standard of living.


What are your thoughts? Am I accurate? Or am I thinking nonsense?

	15-09-2003 08:14									#2
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So you cater to the mudsill theory?

	15-09-2003 08:18									#3
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What is the mudsill theory exactly?

(I did a google search, but it's a lot to read!)

	15-09-2003 08:21									#4
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ok, found it in the dictionary

I don't cater to it

	15-09-2003 08:46									#5
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Why the conspiracy theory? You have way too much respect for the government's ability to control things. Maybe they're more capable in a country like NZ. I don't know.

	15-09-2003 09:32									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py For example, a rich person would most likely not join the army, clean the streets, stack shelves, clear rubbish, etc.

This has always been going on since the beginning of time though.

	15-09-2003 09:39									#7
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Yes it has Ted, but it is coming to a time where it will soon stop (that is if ppl are willing to stop working on those sorts of jobs)

	15-09-2003 09:41									#8
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Oh and DanS, try to widen your imagination, when I say things, don't take it as a final answer, what I say is just breif.

I notice a lot of people on Apolyton do that.

The government doesn't really control it, just the build up civilization over thousands of years. But all in all, the government understands it, and lets it happen. (because it needs to)

	15-09-2003 10:58									#9
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Our standard of living is already very high -- Kings from centuries ago couldn't afford to live the way even our poor do now -- entertainment on demand, travel where ever, when ever, good food supplied from all over the world, etc.

Yet, the garbage still gets picked up.

Why?

Because we now pay them out the wazoo to do it.

	15-09-2003 11:03									#10
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it's all about the robots

the robots and nuclear weapons

it is all about the robots and nuclear weapons

Jon Miller

	15-09-2003 11:16									#11
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jon miller makes his robot do all his work

	15-09-2003 11:33									#12
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Nope, he IS a robot.

	15-09-2003 11:51									#13
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The government doesn't have to make people poor. People do a good enough job of that by themselves.

	15-09-2003 12:07									#14
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quote: For example, a rich person would most likely not join the army, clean the streets, stack shelves, clear rubbish, etc. These sorts of jobs, if stopped, would cripple the country in days. The country, REQUIRES to have people who are "forced" into taking, low paying, or rather, crappy, "easy-to-get" jobs.

This is quite true. What is actually happening though is that the army is smaller, streets don't get cleaned as often, and low-maintenance warehouse stores become more commonplace.

	15-09-2003 12:41									#15
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Mad Monk: Yes, but those people remain poor. If they were rich, they wouldn't have to do those jobs. That's one of the points I am making.

Once machines take over litter jobs entirely, there won't be any need for humans to do those jobs. Allowing room to make those people rich.

I actually believe that it is within the countries power to give ALL people a medium to high standard living. They just don't because it would cripple the nation.

	15-09-2003 16:15									#16
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The way I see it in 50-100 years(if the world/civilization ramains relatively stable) we are going to have machines capable of doing every job that humas do a lot better and cheaper.
At that point people would have to think of things to do. And I think that most people would engage in arts, sports etc. since these are going to be the only things that simply don't make sence if done by machines.

	15-09-2003 17:41									#17
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The problem is that there aren't enough jobs out there to employ the millions and millions of people who formerly did cheap labor type jobs.

	15-09-2003 19:08									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og The way I see it in 50-100 years(if the world/civilization ramains relatively stable) we are going to have machines capable of doing every job that humas do a lot better and cheaper. At that point people would have to think of things to do. And I think that most people would engage in arts, sports etc. since these are going to be the only things that simply don't make sence if done by machines.

If machines take all the jobs, then many more people will be jobless. They can't all be painters and writers. God knows we have enough of them already. Though they could all be lawyers. Lawyers will never be out of work.

	15-09-2003 19:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og The way I see it in 50-100 years(if the world/civilization ramains relatively stable) we are going to have machines capable of doing every job that humas do a lot better and cheaper.

People said this 50 years ago also. It wasn't true then and I doubt it will be true now.

There are certain jobs that will always get done cheaper by paying some illegal immigrant minimum wage rather than installing a full computer and machine system.

	15-09-2003 19:21									#20
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Well, they thought that vacuum cleaners and washing machines would make housework slide by, but still people spend about the same amount of cleaning house, which in my personal experience seems to be about 10 minutes so I don't know what all the fuss is about.

But in industry and farming, machines can greatly improve effeciancy. America has fewer farmers than China, but can greatly out produce them by its technology. And what the Japanese have done is truly amazing.

	15-09-2003 19:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet People said this 50 years ago also. It wasn't true then and I doubt it will be true now. There are certain jobs that will always get done cheaper by paying some illegal immigrant minimum wage rather than installing a full computer and machine system.

How do you know they were wrong? The top margin gives us 50 years more to prove them right.

Anyway all I'm saying is that in the long run all WORK is going to be done by machines at lower costs than human work.
People might sweep their floors if they feel like it but they won't have to, because they would be able to afford a machine that would do the same faster and better.

	15-09-2003 19:44									#22
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There's a huge supply of immigrants all over the poor parts of the world. There's no chance in hell that the supply of cheap labour for unqualified manual work will run out in many, many years to come. At the moment most rich countries are trying to keep migration down but if there's to be a shortage of labour there's no real problems in changing the rules and policies for labour migration.

	15-09-2003 19:48									#23
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quote: But in industry and farming, machines can greatly improve effeciancy. America has fewer farmers than China, but can greatly out produce them by its technology.

Chinese agriculture greatly outproduces that of the United States. But then the United States doesn't have a third of its population working on the farm, but rather about 1%.

	15-09-2003 20:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py that rich people, don't want to do all the REALLY important jobs that matter.

This statement is erroneous. "low" paying jobs are NOT the only important jobs. "rich" jobs are also quite neccessary. For example, society needs doctors, professors, lawyers, judges, CEO's, bank managers, etc... These are all very important high paying jobs. Without them, you'd be a third world nation.

In fact, it can be argued that these "rich" jobs are more important than "low" paying jobs. For example, a doctor is much more important than a Wal Mart cashier. You can automate the cashier job, and some places even have self-serve check-out lines where everything is automated. You can't automate the job of doctor. Furthermore, a doctor saves lives which requires expertise and skills which will deserve a higher income.

This idea that the rich don't contribute or that their jobs are not important, is one of the biggest fallacies in leftist economic thinking.

If you want a well-developped and advanced society, you MUST have the high paying jobs.

	15-09-2003 20:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Our standard of living is already very high -- Kings from centuries ago couldn't afford to live the way even our poor do now -- entertainment on demand, travel where ever, when ever, good food supplied from all over the world, etc.

Either you have no idea what it's like to be poor or you are thinking of some very poor kings. I suspect, like most people who make this stupid claim, you have no clue what it's like to be poor.

	15-09-2003 20:23									#26
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Automation is not just about not having to pay wages though, another big reason for automation is improving quality and efficiency. Additionally, machines won't go on strike, don't have personal problems, don't require health insurance, and can be fired without any consequence.

	15-09-2003 20:33									#27
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ALL rubbish.
If those low paying jobs were paid a lot better, a lot of people would be willing to do them.
(as pointed out by the higher pay of garbage collectors. it's now a highly desirable job)
I think a lot of people would prefer to be doing something instead of nothing. And if you paid them more, the negative stigma that is attached to some of these jobs would dissappear. These people already know they contribute and a higher pay would reinforce it.

RAH

	15-09-2003 21:30									#28
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What about robot rights? Don't they have a right to a living wage?

	15-09-2003 21:33									#29
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Supply and demand.

Lots of workers for these jobs = low pay

Fewer workers means that to fill these positions, they will have to increase the pay.

	15-09-2003 22:18									#30
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Or you'll get what happens in Britain. The economy doesn't grow fast enough to supply high-end jobs to those qualified. This leads to a depression in wages for many skilled jobs. There is also a surfeit of skilled workers.

Meanwhile, menial PT jobs have replaced many FT jobs as the economy has restructured. This means that, in many cases people are earning less than they would have 20 years ago. Also many skilled people are forced to work these menial jobs, while at the same time collecting state benefit to even get a living wage.

Our Economy is fucked. We have legions of 1:1 Supermarket Managers.