20-09-2003 17:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master How can I say WOOHOO!

Open your mouth. Then, let it come from the inside.

	20-09-2003 19:34									#32
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*Nuclear Master sacrifices Hot_Enamel to the RNG Godz

	20-09-2003 21:30									#33
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* Fried-Psitalon sacrifices all the people with LOTR avatars to the RNG gods.

	20-09-2003 22:04									#34
	Effects of the Courthouse in Tripoli Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Tripoli was at 33% Corruption/waste before the courthouse was built. I was (at the time) assuming that it would go to a minimum of 25% after the courthouse was built. Fortunately, it is at 24% at this time.

To let everyone know, what effects that will have on our GA plans, here is a chart that shows the actual (not from a simulation) corruption/waste that Tripoli now has.

code:

Corrution/Waste at 24%
Raw       lost Trade/Sheilds due to Corruption/Waste
1          0
2          0
3          1
4          1
5          1
6          1
7          2
8          2
9          2
10         2        Max Sheilds available at this time
11         3
12         3
13         3
14         3        Max Trade available at this time
15         4
16         4
17         4
18         4
19         5        Max Sheilds - Size 5 - Under GA
20         5
21         5        Max Sheilds - Size 6 - Under GA
22         5
23         6        Max Trade - Size 5 - Under GA
24         6
25         6
26         6        Max Trade - Size 6 - Under GA
27         6
28         7

	20-09-2003 22:11									#35
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Looks like we went up in Literacy and Annual Income.

	22-09-2003 00:12									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

nye, following your turn log precisely, I am unable to get the same result for vonHorseman - he loses only 1hp in my replay...

1) I load the save
2) during the production announcements, I set the merc production for Apo, Ming, & Banana, and the worker production for HoD
3) I follow your turnlog exactly up to vonHorseman's attack
4) vonHorseman loses only 1 pip???

Any idea what the problem could be?

	22-09-2003 00:17									#37
	Got spare money?

In the SPDG we had some things come up while playing the turns that were not matching up exactly. I thought it had to do with the differences between 1.21 and 1.27. Now I'm not sure what is going on.

	22-09-2003 01:32									#38
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Well, that is strange. There were no diplomatic actions this turn, and that is the only attack. Where could an rng value have been used?

	22-09-2003 01:41									#39
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nye, you using PtW 1.27f? I tried to replay under PtW 1.21f. Shame on me for not upgrading, I know - but up until now, there was no difference...

	22-09-2003 01:44									#40
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Yes, 1.27

	22-09-2003 02:28									#41
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Ah...., if vondrack is using 1.21, then there's problem. Granted therer shouldn't be a problem, but it seems as though the upgrade to 1.27 changes the way the RNG is handled for each turn. That gives us then this problem: If a team doesn't the results of one turn of events in a particular turn, then they culd reload and play with a different version. 1.21 and 1.27 are somewhat compatable. We would never know what the team before us played with. We wondered if there was a way to manipulate the RNG....ow we know of many ways to do so. Every time a new way to cheat is uncovered it makes me uneasy as to the gamesmenship of the other teams.

	22-09-2003 11:14									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Let's not let it get out to the general public then. I trust the members of our team not to cheat, but I don't know the members of the other teams. They could have figured this out too, but let's not help them figure it out.

	22-09-2003 13:29									#43
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Can we bury the bad thoughts about what other teams 'might' do? Please?

If you cannot trust, then this format of play is certainly not for you. PBEM never has been, in any game.

	24-09-2003 01:53									#44
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I am lost. I installed the 1.27f PtW patch - but I still have the same problem. My vonHorseman kills the barb losing only 1 hp instead of 2...

nye, can you try replaying this turn exactly the way you played it? I can see that it really was -2hp, since the next save and the picture prove it... which confuses me even more, because I have no idea what the problem can be.

Can you try attacking with vonHorseman before you do anything else? Right after dismissing all the "finished. next build?" dialogues?

	24-09-2003 02:59									#45
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This problem has arisen in the PTWDG also... we must see if we can get to the bottom of it...

	24-09-2003 03:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Trip This problem has arisen in the PTWDG also... we must see if we can get to the bottom of it...

VonHorseman crossed the lands into the PTWDG, too?

	24-09-2003 03:08									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster VonHorseman crossed the lands into the PTWDG, too?

Not quite. A team has been having problems with varying RNG results between different players with the same version of the game. So we need to dig up what the problem is.

	24-09-2003 06:29									#48
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A bug? I like finding bugs. Let's see...

Run 1
- Opened turn. Changed nothing. Did nothing. Accepted default build suggestions when promted (changed nothing).
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 1 pip damage

Run 2
- Exactly the same as above, same result.

Run 3
- Apolyton, Tripoli, HoD had builds reset from default as dialogue box pops up (to Merc, Barracks, worker in order).
- Same result as in run 1.

*It is now that I remember that it is not exactly what I did when playing this turn. Sometimes when playing a turn, I set markers in cities that produce something so that I will go back later and change things. So let's try this one more time...

Run 4
- Apolyton, Mingapulco, Banatopia, Tripoli, HoD all set production to wonders as the dialogue comes up.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 2 pips damage
*Hot damn! Found it.

Run 5
- Apolyton reset to GreatLib, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* Yowzaaaa

Run 6
- Apolyton reset to Oracle, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* OK. it doesn't matter which wonder it is

Run 7
- Mingapulco reset to GrWall, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 3 pips damage
* Which city does what matters?

Run 8
- Bananatopia reset to FP, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 3 pips damage
* Hmmm... same result as Mingapulco on GrWall

Run 9
- HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 1 pip damage
* Which city does what matters, or does it?

Run 10
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* Same result as Apolyton by itself

Run 11
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, Tripoli reset to Oracle, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* Strange

Run 11
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, Mingapulco reset to Oracle, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* Hmmmm

At this point, I have run out of time for now. I will post this so that others can get at it too.

	24-09-2003 06:34									#49
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Well isn't that odd...

I think this means that from now on we should do all military things BEFORE production, queues, etc.

	24-09-2003 07:42									#50
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I wonder if GCA knows this trick and has researched it heavily. Maybe we should ask Mongoose if (on the turns that he had replayed when there was other accusations of possible cheating), if GCA had set ANY builds differently from default and ask him to look at them again.

I hope that Soren will join our team someday, as he should be here to see this.

E_T

	24-09-2003 07:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I wonder if GCA knows this trick and has researched it heavily. Maybe we should ask Mongoose if (on the turns that he had replayed when there was other accusations of possible cheating), if GCA had set ANY builds differently from default and ask him to look at them again.

Mongoose said that he was able to get identical results that GCA got from their turns right off the bat without changing production or anything else.

	24-09-2003 07:46									#52
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Does someone, (with time) still have 1.21 on their computer and can check this against what NYE already has done??

E_T

	24-09-2003 10:37									#53
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I duplicated NYE's runs as precisely as possible with 1.21. Here are the results (copy and paste is a wonderful thing ). All 11 runs were the same under 1.21. I'll try experimenting more; it seems from these results that maybe only the first city to be changed affects RNG.

Run 1
- Opened turn. Changed nothing. Did nothing. Accepted default build suggestions when promted (changed nothing).
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 1 pip damage

Run 2
- Exactly the same as above, same result.

Run 3
- Apolyton, Tripoli, HoD had builds reset from default as dialogue box pops up (to Merc, Barracks, worker in order).
- Same result as in run 1.

Run 4
- Apolyton, Mingapulco, Banatopia, Tripoli, HoD all set production to wonders as the dialogue comes up.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 2 pips damage, just like NYE's run

Run 5
- Apolyton reset to GreatLib, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage

Run 6
- Apolyton reset to Oracle, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage
* It doesn't matter which wonder it is in 1.21 either

Run 7
- Mingapulco reset to GrWall, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 3 pips damage, all dealt at once

Run 8
- Bananatopia reset to FP, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 3 pips damage

Run 9
- HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 1 pip damage

Run 10
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage

Run 11
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, Tripoli reset to Oracle, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage

Run 11
- Apolyton reset to Sun Tzu's, Mingapulco reset to Oracle, HoD reset to GrLighthouse, all others left on defaults in the dialogue box.
- Attacked with vonHorseman. 0 pips damage

	24-09-2003 11:04									#54
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Whenever a change isn't mentioned, the default build is accepted.

B Run 1
-Apolyton set to Merc
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

B Run 2
- Apolyton set to Library
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

B Run 3
- Apolyton set to The Oracle
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

B Run 4
- Mingapulco set to Merc
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

B Run 5
- Mingapulco set to Library
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

B Run 6
- Mingapulco set to The Oracle
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

B Run 7
- Mingapulco set to the FP
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

B Run 8
- Bananatopia set to Merc
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

B Run 9
- Bananatopia set to Library
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

*At this point I decided imps and units make no difference, and I will therefore not test them any further.

B Run 10
- Bananatopia set to The Oracle
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

B Run 11
- Bananatopia set to the FP
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

*At this point I decided there was no difference between Great and Small wonders and focused on wonder testing

B Run 12
- Tripoli set to the Great Lib
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

B Run 13
- HoD set to the Colossus
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

B Run 14
-Apolyton set to the Oracle, but switched to a Merc in the movement phase before the attack
-vonHorseman takes 0 pip damage like if the wonder wasn't switched back

B Run 15
-Mingapulco set to the Great Lib, but switched to a Merc in the movement phase before the attack
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage like if the wonder wasn't switched back

B Run 16
-Apolyton set to the Oracle, switched to a Merc, city screen exited, then switched once again to the Oracle in the movement phase before the attack
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage like if the wonder wasn't switched back and then switched back again

B Run 17
-Mingapulco set to the Oracle, switched to a Merc, city screen exited, then switched once again to the Oracle in the movement phase before the attack
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage like if the wonder wasn't switched back and then switched back again

Conclusion thus far: RNG is only changed when a wonder is set during the build phase. Changing it to a non-wonder or changing it to a wonder during the movement phase has no effect.

	24-09-2003 11:28									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

C Run 1
-Changed all cities to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 2 pips damage

C Run 2
-Changed all cities but HoD to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 2 pips damage

C Run 3
-Changed all cities but Tripoli to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 2 pips damage

C Run 4
-Changed all cities but Bananatopia to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 5
-Changed all cities but Mingapulco to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

C Run 6
-Changed all cities but Apolyton to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 7
-Changed only Apolyton and Mingapulco to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 8
-Changed only Apolyton and Bananatopia to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

C Run 9
-Changed only Apolyton and Tripoli to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 10
-Changed only Apolyton and HoD to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 11
-Changed only Mingapulco and Bananatopia to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 0 pips damage

C Run 12
-Changed only Mingapulco and Tripoli to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

C Run 13
-Changed only Mingapulco and HoD to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

C Run 14
-Changed only Bananatopia and Tripoli to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

C Run 15
-Changed only Bananatopia and HoD to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 3 pips damage

C Run 16
-Changed only Tripoli and HoD to a wonder.
-vonHorseman takes 1 pip damage

Two furthur conclusions after these tests:
A) Combos do have an effect. Combos are the only way to produce 2 pip damage in this scenario.
B) Kloreep is getting way too tired to try to figure out the rest right now.

Also, pips aren't the best test of this... for instance, Banatopia and Mingapulco wondering (and their combos with either HoD or Tripoli) are a different fight, as damage is dealt in a different order, though the ending pip damage is the same. But hopefully damage will give something to start with.

	24-09-2003 12:51									#56
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Wow!

Guys, this is way more than I expected. And I am glad I asked nye to replay the turn, since it would take me hours to discover this "feature" (I never use markers like that, since I always go through every single city, making sure there is no fine tune possible, before ending the turn and passing the save on).

I hope I will have some spare time today to catch up with the turn reports.

BTW - I would be very interested to know WHY does setting a wonder build during the build phase eats an RNG roll up...

	25-09-2003 01:33									#57
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack BTW - I would be very interested to know WHY does setting a wonder build during the build phase eats an RNG roll up...

Perhaps there's a call the the RNG to help determine whether or not an AI Civ will attempt to build a Wonder at that point....

Or maybe the game, which uses the RNG to determine when a city is in disorder will destroy all the shileds in a production box when it revolts. With that being the case, maybe shields directed at a wonder are protected from such a revolt since there's more to lose from such an occurence the game designers thought it would be unfair to cause this to happen. That would mean that the RNG would not be needed on that turn to deciced whether or not a city that is revolting would destroy its shields in production. That would also mean that the RNg would not need to check this at the begining of the turn if the production was set to something other than a wonder at the begining of a turn or reset to a wonder in the middle of a turn; it would only be checked at the begining of every turn.

That's my best guess ATM.